Do Amish women have rights?
Amish women may seem oppressed, but are esteemed in Amish society
Amish women play a significant role in the Amish household and by extension Amish society. Women do not take on the same roles as men in Amish society, a fact that can disturb non-Amish observers of the culture. Amish base their Christian communities on Biblical principles, meaning a more traditional calling for women.
However, the perception of the Amish woman as necessarily oppressed is one which ignores the reality of her position, as well as Amish values.
Amish women’s roles
Amish women play important roles in the household and community. Among other roles, Amish women are:
- sources of household income
- voting church members
- business partners
- role models
Amish women are esteemed in Amish society for the contribution they make to home and community. They are mothers, managers of the household, and play an important role in maintaining communal ties. As the home is considered in some ways the center of Amish life, her role in maintaining it is highly important.
Female Amish roles have in fact evolved as Amish have moved from agriculture to entrepreneurship and day labor. In recent times, with Amish men spending more time away from home in non-Amish working environments, Amish women may be taking on a more traditional role of housewife.
In the agricultural model she would be expected to help out in farm tasks, taking on certain “male” roles, as well as running the household. Some Amish women with men working away from the home have had to take on the role of disciplinarian more so than in the past.
Restrictions on Amish women
Amish women have the right to vote in Member’s Meetings and also to nominate candidates for church ministry. However, they do not serve in that same church leadership.
Amish women typically take at least a nominally subservient role to their husbands. In public an Amish woman will normally defer to her husband’s decisions. In private, however, the reality is that the Amish woman is highly influential, and Amish husbands often yield to their wives’ wishes, particularly on household matters.
Amish men typically consult wives on important decisions concerning the family, and in business decisions as well. In practice, an Amish woman’s wishes can determine the course of a business or influence a move to another community. As one Amish-raised woman quipped, “the man may be the head of the household, she is often the neck.”
Working Amish women
Amish females often work as waitresses, teachers, or hired household help while single. But once married, they are typically expected to remain in the home, and almost always do so when they become mothers of small children.
There is evidence that Amish gender roles have shifted in recent years. Some Amish women run their own businesses, and in some cases their husbands even work in the business. She may be for all intents and purposes the owner, though on paper the couple may be listed as co-owners.
Typical businesses owned by Amish females include quilt-making operations, market stands, and small retail shops. Amish women may be more likely to work away or to go into business once children have grown up. A few Amish women, usually unmarried, even work in “man’s jobs”, such as in manufacturing plants.
Yet the expected norm for the vast majority of Amish women is to contribute to the household at home. Her labor and expertise play an important part in the household finances, from the food produced in the gardens she tends, to the secondary roles she might take on (ie, bookkeeping) in assisting in the operation of a business.
Are Amish women happy?
Though there is not a lot of hard scientific data, evidence suggests there is a generally high level of contentment among Amish women.
Hurst and McConnell’s in-depth survey of Ohio Amish women led the authors to state that “The women generally voiced deep satisfaction with their roles. All believed strongly that men and women are meant to have different roles to play in life, largely because of perceived differences between the sexes” (Paradox, Hurst/McConnell, p121). Of course, certain individuals struggle more than others to find satisfaction in the traditional Amish role. Though it is rare, some may even leave the community as a result of failing to find appropriate avenues for self-fulfillment.
Amish women tend to have a strong sense of identity, are highly respected in Amish society, and gain satisfaction from playing productive roles within Amish society. Amish women “take pride” in a garden well-tended, well-behaved children, complements on the home and food, and in handiwork appreciated by others.
Though feminists may have problems with what they perceive as the Amish woman’s position, others have noted that Amish women seem to have achieved a degree of contentment that many modern feminists continue to pursue, with less satisfactory results (Conundrum, Olshan/Schmidt).
For further information, see:
“Amish Women and the Feminist Conundrum”, Marc Olshan and Kimberly Schmidt; found in The Amish Struggle with Modernity, eds Donald B. Kraybill and Marc A. Olshan
An Amish Paradox: Diversity and Change in the World’s Largest Amish Community, Charles E. Hurst, David L. McConnell
Amish Women: Lives and Stories, Louise Stoltzfus
Amish women have values and morals, unlike modern secular American “women”.
You, & others like you, are exactly the reason why I have rejected the church & it’s teachings! When involved in religion I met so many people who were intolerant bigots with the attitude that they were better than others simply because they claimed to follow Christian teachings!
I find your generalisation offensive, rude & inaccurate.
Amish Women as they Are
Nobody is judging Amish women; this article is about them as they are. Amish women have as many rights as anybody. But the more you learn about the Amish, you will see they are not preoccupied with rights.
If you studied the Mormons, Hindus or Zulus, you must take them as they are. After all, you are learning. The same thing applies here. You are looking into a faith and culture that comes to us from the 1500s and 1600s in a more primitive Europe. They are not so concerned with being Americans, or influenced by the media. Also, anyone who wishes to leave the Amish is free to do so. They are not captives in a cult. As this article says, there is a good degree of contentment among Amish women. They may ask, What do they have to run away from?
Also, It IS true that many Christians have poor and improper attitudes. I’m very sorry about that. But it is a good reason to learn more about the Amish, due to their humility, submissive attitudes, and general fairness. I think that among humans, a great many of them are as well adjusted as you can get.
Last item: in the Rumspringa period, 10% to 15% of Amish young people will decide to leave their families and communities to go permanently out in the world. This is freedom. It is in their view, anyway. I think it is sad. They are missing out on a potentially better, less cluttered life. Before long some of them will realise their mistake as drinking, smoking, your nasty vocabulary, driving cars and getting sucked in by the media are NOT NECESSARILY a better life.
Keep reading about the Amish, and what they ARE, and what they are NOT. Then come back quietly and rejoin us here to learn more, and let it affect your life in a positive way.
Wish the page had thumbs up!!!!!
Yes, I can’t add to that, but I wish I could give a thumbs up!
There are a few other sects too that have these values, the mennonites, which there are some around us, and the Independent Fundamental Baptists. And yes, these are bad apples in many sects, but most are good people.
By the way, the author of Think No Evil, about the Nickel Mines school tragedy, he was no longer in the community, yet he was in contact and active with the community.
I am compelled to agree with the well written commentary regarding the Amish. I, as a Roman Catholic, know that unplugging and live within the world not of the world is emphasized in Catholicism as well. The Amish wisdom, though not new, is a good practice and I have no doubt amongst those who were born into and ultimately choose to live out that life, are truly content as much as anyone else can be.
Last, the disciplined lifestyle (and this would be true for anyone) does seem to me, to be one worth living versus those who flounder along from day to day. Their day begins and ends with purpose, and those who live with balance (to include myself) tend to be more satisfied and I would humbly assert “happier”.
I really appreciate a lot about the Amish, but I’m weary of all these articles passing off a primal subjugation of 50% of the population as ok, finding elaborate ways to justify it. And of course the woman believe it’s good for them- look up “Stockholm Syndrome”. And before you pass me off as someone who takes morals lightly, you’re incorrect and ignoring your own sins of seeing people based on skin-deep-worldly things like the physical human form that determines gender. You’re failing to understand the deeper meaning of love written about in the Bible (1 John 4:8). You’re using your pride to make all excuses for subjugating woman, if you’re male; and if you’re female you’re betraying other females by supporting this.
People who believe in subjugation of woman and use Christian writings to support it fail to contemplate the Bible with the true amount of deep contemplation it deserves. You’re taking it at face-value and following human-written-words blindly, which is the same mistake the Pharisees made.
And how about the average man’s morals? Or do you just judge women?
Both sides are covered. Nobody is Judged.
Stay tuned. They will cover all bases, if they haven’t already.
But this article is about WOMEN.
I have to respond to Albert’s mean-spirited comment. I can only hope that he has learned something, and softened his hard, and honed his brain, since 2010. Some “secular” women (as he puts it) are very moral and kind. Some Amish women are neither (I am speaking from personal knowledge.) People are individuals. “Moral” is defined by individuals and the word is highly subjective. A woman, or a man, can live a “moral” life – as defined by themselves, their church and their creator – in any setting. I would suggest that painting an entire category of people as immoral or moral, is rather arrogant and shallow – and arrogance is not “moral”, in my book. Food for thought, Albert.
I would mostly agree with this story that Amish women are generally happy and content. However, in my Amish community, I saw quite a few Amish women, who were depressed. I didn’t recognize it as depression at the time, not having an understanding of it but looking back, I see it now as depression. Those women had husbands, who were a bit rougher than other Amish men and they had lots of children close to each other and so perhaps that caused this to happen to them.
Can Amish female have an Englisher female pen-pal and if so, how can I get one?
I would like to become a pen-pal.
I will be your pen-pal if having an Englisher fora pen-pal is permissible.
473 Willowton Road
Marilyn, try this: https://amishamerica.com/how-can-i-find-an-amish-pen-pal/
I just noticed a woman out working in the field helping her husband and she had a dress on ! Why are females not allowed to wear jeans,slack,etc. ? Jeans are what you need on to work in fields.
Are there any exceptions to this ? I could not imagine working in a field in a dress !!!! Some of their rules just do not make good sense !!!! Who makes up all these rules anyways ??
Am I the only one who feels this way ?? Would like to hear other comments re: this…….
I’m sure it’s their belief……but I don’t think God would punish you for wearing jeans, etc….I think these Amish women need to get together and make up their own rules when it comes to some of the clothes they are forced to wear……Why are the men the main boss ?? I could see maybe in somethings like purchasing horses, etc. but clothes for them to wear to make their jobs more comfortable…..and would make much more sense…..they probably could even get more work done with a pair of old scruffy jeans on and not have to worry about tearing up their dresses…….just sayin………………
Even the Amish men do not wear jeans!
In general, the Amish appear to avoid manufactured clothing.
As for the Amish women’s role… it is not what I would prefer myself, and I do consider it sexist. But, as with other religions such as Mormonism, most of the women who are raised in this environment do not appear to want to “go against the grain.” They may have been persuaded by their upbringing that the status quo will make them happy, or they may have already left. Some may wish things were different, but could not easily give up their family and community to try living elsewhere.
Realistically speaking, this is a religion that tends to avoid modernization in all respects (for the pursuit of a simple, Godly life). The role of women in the Amish community is of the same vintage as most other aspects of Amish life.
It’s because of Deuteronomy 22:5. Women wearing trousers would be considered cross-dressing, which is not allowed.
is it biblical for woman not to wear paints?
most people like to quote Deuteronomy ch 22v5 and say see the Bible tells us not to ware paints if you are a woman but the is not what the verse really means. What it means is for a woman NOT to take on the roll of a man during the act of lets call it love between a husband and wife. A man and a woman.rember in the days of the Bible men also wore a skirt,tunic and a robe. Some woman just feel that it is a morel issue and one also of modesty. I love and respect that.
They chose to wear that stuff...
As a man, not blind, I would “notice” part of her body, instead of her mind and holiness and, recently, I pondered one thing that misguided some leaders and churchgoers: If my wife shows part of her legs of feet, isn´t she drawing some attention to her body (publicly)?
When I moved to Colombia I had issues with my last partner, she liked to wear skirts (some were shorts) and she was in good shape and I wanted to lessen those who might have some atraction and, additionally, she started to go to parties with her daughter (she wasn´t my daughter).
I came back alone my place and lonelines, because she was unwilling to understand my arguments or reasons and, her background was from the RCC.
Have a look on the Victorian fashion compared to this dress i could see. also, her bikinies and, without being rude, it is like I showed some muscles in f4ront of a window, just in case someone wants to “buy” me.
Look at this warnings, NOT simply for priests (men):
Exo 20:26 And don’t build an altar that requires steps; you might expose yourself when you climb up.
Exo 20:26 And do not go up by steps to my altar, for fear that your bodies may be seen uncovered.
Exo 28:41 Then dress Aaron and his sons in these clothes, pour olive oil on their heads, and ordain them as my priests.
Exo 28:42 Make linen shorts for them that reach from the waist down to the thigh, so they won’t expose themselves.
Today, we people, are lured away the way we´re pleased, even the way Sodom liked.
I have a lot to be detached from.
En France, les religieuses Carmélites pourtant très austères et consacrées à Dieu, portent des jeans dans les champs et des vareuses ou des vêtements de travail et des petits fichus en général bleus pour protéger leur têtes et parfois un chapeau de paille pardessus. Donc il n’y a pas de raison à ce que les femmes Amish ne porteraient pas de pantalon. D’ailleurs elles portent bien des baskets, ce n’est pas très féminin et avantageux avec leur robe. Cela dit j’aime leur costume, je trouve cela joli hormis les baskets qui sont trop modernes par rapport à leur tenue.
I am not Amish, and I do wear pants, so I cannot really speak to this, but I think the inconvenience of dresses is overrated. Dresses, when they are made of tough fabric, are not too long, and are sufficiently full, need not be that inconvenient. A long time ago, everybody wore long tunics, nobody wore pants. Yea, maybe it’s inconvenient, but pants can also be inconvenient sometimes. I find it hard to be cozy and comfy in jeans.
Women dresses religiously determined
Hey Mona, Amish women wear dresses because of their religion. They are not allowed to show their body curves to ‘avoid temptation’. The whole feminist ‘who are the men to decide’ is a result of western conditioning. Amish women are conditioned differently and, in a free country, have the right to be different.
Dresses aren't so bad!
I grew up on a farm & although I am not Amish (or religious at all for that matter) I have to say that when I was doing yard work with Mum or Dad in Summer it was always cooler to opt for the dress which allowed air flow! Unfortunately closed toed shoes (work boots or rubber boots depending on how much rain we had had) were a must & they tend to get a bit hot & sweaty but the dress (or skirt) was a good choice!
Winter called for jeans though…
You should study your BIBLE more.
Do You have a BIBLE?
Are you Born Again?
GOD gives us rules regulations to follow not to be mean but to protect us as should any FINE/GOOD Parent should who LOVES their children. You should go read thru the book of proverbs and see what it states about how a parent should treat their children also how a child should conduct themselves and then read the new testament on these things and then look at the old testament and you will she that the WORD OF GOD WILL NOT EVER CONTRADICT IT’S SELF.
HAPPY READING AND STUDYING:
THE NUMBERS ARE FOR THE GREEK CONCORDANCE OF THE BIBLE
2Ti 2:15 StudyG4704 to shewG3936 thyselfG4572 approvedG1384 unto God,G2316 a workmanG2040 that needeth not to be ashamed,G422 rightly dividingG3718 theG3588 wordG3056 of truth.G225
2Ti 3:16 AllG3956 scriptureG1124 is given by inspiration of God,G2315 andG2532 is profitableG5624 forG4314 doctrine,G1319 forG4314 reproof,G1650 forG4314 correction,G1882 forG4314 instructionG3809 inG1722 righteousness:G1343
2Ti 3:17 ThatG2443 theG3588 manG444 of GodG2316 may beG5600 perfect,G739 throughly furnishedG1822 untoG4314 allG3956 goodG18 works.G2041
AMEN, AMEN & AMEN!!!
AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!!!!!!!!
If I am thinking correctly, I believe wearing pants under the dress is ok. This reminds me of when I was in grade school. Girls could only wear dresses, but on cold days we could wear pants under them, to be removed once we arrived at school.
Wearing a dress in the field
I’m sorry buy I’d have to disagree with you. I am not Amish BTW.
I personally find jeans quite uncomfortable. I would never want to do hard physical labor in clothing that binds every time I bend over or squat.
Dresses offer full freedom of movement.
That being said, the excess of fabric can be a safety issue.
Mona, I can not pull the exact scripture from my pea brain right now but it does say in the bible that a “woman shall not dress like a man” and vice versa. I am sure this is why Amish women wear dresses at all times. To wear pants would be to dress like a man. Amish take the bible literally, so no, it is not just the men making rules and forcing the women to do this.
Whether or not “God would punish a woman for wearing pants” is not the point. If a person, like the Amish do, put God first, punishment has nothing to do with it, it has to do with respecting what God has said in His word and adhereing to it.
The scripture you are speaking of is: Deuteronomy 22:5
I took this from the Message Bible:
A woman must not wear a man’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing. This kind of thing is an abomination to God, your God.
The NIV put it this way:
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.
As the Amish do take the Bible very literally, it would make sense that the women wear only dresses. It is my opinion that God wishes for us to respect our bodies, as they are a temple of God. I believe this thought process extends to what we wear, so we should dress modestly, so as not to offend.
Not sure where this comment would best fit...
Re: Deut. 22:5 – It is interesting to remember that in biblical times, when God handed down these words, both males and females dressed rather similarly, in what can best be described as “dresses” (trousers did not yet exist). They wore a tunic secured by a girdle (wide belt) and often an outer garment called a mantle (like a robe/overcoat). Still, women’s garments looked different from men’s. Her tunic was longer and her mantle heavier, and she often wore a veil.
It seems safe to say that God doesn’t want his women trying to look like men, nor his men trying to look like women. I guess in modern society it translates pretty well to trousers and dresses, but to say that God wants women in dresses might be a stretch; however, I think women in dresses marks a clear differentiation and that’s what I prefer. I could just never condemn a woman in modest, lady-like slacks based on Deut. 22:5.
Not everything in the bible is literal. It has many parables, similies,hyperbolas, and metaphores. Dueteronomy 22.5 is talking about mens and womans roles.
The bible tells us that long hair is a shame to a man. Sampson had long hair? Understanding the bible requires one to resolve the conflict. Proverbs 1:23 is quite necessary.
Samson was a Nazarite
Before his birth, Samson’s parents were bound to a Nazarite vow, to dedicate him to God, he would be a judge. They were forbidden from eating fermented grapes, wine or any such alcohol. Now that we knaow about fetal Alcohol damage to the brain, we know why this was. That damages the areas of judgement. On with my point…… The Nazarite vow was taken normally for a limited period of time by an adult man, the fact that his hair was long was mwant as a sign that he was dedicating himself to a Nazarite vow. And when it was over, he was to shave his head and burn his hair in the temple. In Samson’s case, he was never to cut it. and that he showed signs of poor judgement as he fornicated with women that he had no marriage obligation to, he touched a dead lion, He burned huge tracts of fields in revenge he set foxes on fire (animal cruelty), anyway he was a lousy judge. But the hair cutting struck him weak because it was symbolic of his vow. And probably since he did a lot of horrible things willingly, and with a huge ego, God was showing him who was in charge.
John the Baptist probably had the Nazarite vow long hair. The bible is silebnt in it, but since he led an ascetic life, in camel hair clothes, and eating locusts and honey, and living in the wilderness, it would follow that he had the hair symbolic of the Nazarite vow.
Mona, it might seem like it would be hard to work in the field in a dress but in reality there’s nothing a woman can do wearing pants that she can’t as easily do in a dress. I recently started wearing skirts only, following the Biblical directive of modesty and not wearing what pertains to a man. I admit I don’t do work in a field, but I’ve found no problems or limitations in what I can do.
The problem is, in modern society wearing a dress is thought of as “dressing up” while wearing jeans is work attire. Remember that that’s just a cultural perception; women for hundreds of years have been wearing dresses as they worked.
Also that’s no indication that among the Amish the men “force” the women to wear these clothes, any more than we non-Amish are forced to wear what we do. It’s simply because the Amish desire to follow the Bible and this is how they do it.
“Mona, it might seem like it would be hard to work in the field in a dress but in reality there’s nothing a woman can do wearing pants that she can’t as easily do in a dress.”
Jessica, that is so very not true. You’re speaking to Mona as if she’s from another planet. My guess is that Mona has worn a dress in her lifetime. My guess is 99.7% of the female population knows what it’s like to wear a dress. There are many, MANY, things that you cannot do in a dress that you can do wearing pants. I won’t bother to list them all because anybody who’s worn a dress, KNOWS.
A few years ago I would have agreed with you. I saw wearing dresses as “dressing up.” The type of thing you go to a wedding with or wear to church, hardly to work in the fields. I would have spouted off a whole list of things I would NEVER do in a dress.
And by now I’ve done most of them. LOL. Gone fishing, rode a bike, worked in the garden, gone swimming, climbed a ladder, hiked/scrambled in the mountains. Although it is an odd switch in thinking from the jeans I was used to, none of these activities are impractical in the least.
I wear skirts every day because I’m convinced there’s no such thing as jeans that fit.
Add “rock climbing” to the list of things that can be done in a skirt. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-yjVT1J9lBWo/TqWx3JL47PI/AAAAAAAAAGQ/yPLd3uL4M34/w468-h351-k/IMG_5448.JPG
(And yeah, I ride bikes in skirts too. A bicycle skirt guard would be helpful, but they’re hard to find in the US, since biking is seen as exercise rather than transport. They’re readily available in the Netherlands, for example.)
I got one for my sister on eBay not so long ago so perhaps try there if you are still having trouble? She has one of those cool retro bikes with the basket & everything which made things a bit easier as they are no good for exercise (no gears) & solely for transport or being a hipster.
Oh! And yes! I’d imagine riding a bike wearing a dress might pose similar problems to riding a horse wearing a dress ( lol! ). I found a few neat things lately, online or in catalogs, to help with that ( if you’re not someone like me who’d just throw on a pair of jeans or trousers under the dress while riding ).
First, “bloomers” and culotte slips. Either of these can be worn under a skirt, but make it a lot…safer ( haha ) when riding a bike or horse. The bloomers I’ve seen do come in plain styles, too — no lace or fringe. But there are also the tradition bloomers with the elastic and puffed out fabric at the end. Culottes slips are almost the same thing, just slips made to wear beneath culottes, so serve the same purpose as the plain bloomers. Of course, then there are also some long, modest culottes out there that are great, I think. Some are obviously not skirts, while others are pretty much indistinguishable from a skirt ( I am thinking they are the more gathered culottes ). Oh, and I *think* some of those slips I mentioned above come in a few different colors.
I'd like to talk with you Mackenzie
so that we can fellowship over the phone or email. I’m not quit sure how to do this though.
Living in “traditional” roles does not make sense to most women these days especially now that more women work outside the home. Women dressing modestly and wearing dresses is not unacceptable. Why should we have to wear pants to do manual labor?? I am Mennonite and when I help out on the farm I wear dresses and sneakers or muck boots. I do not find it difficult to complete the work wearing dresses, you become accustomed to it and you don’t think twice about it.
I hate to start a controversy and I understand your rights to your opinion. I just want to say I think it is rude of you to generalize secular American women. Many secular women I have met do in fact have morals. They are not always Biblical morals and sometimes they are Biblical but without Biblical intention. Judging by your use of quotes around the word women, I am guessing you do not see secular women as humans let alone women. If I am correct, that is harsh, stereotypical, and closed-off which is not a Biblical way to be.
Thank you, B. Well stated.
I say if the bible says for women not to dress like men…the men can wear the dresses and the women can then wear pants.
Yepper…the bible is MEN telling women how to behave. Let’s see how the men like living in dresses.
And you women saying blah blah and sticking up for this blatant sexism and lowly status for women…SHAME ON YOU! GET A BRAIN…AND A BACKBONE!
When that particular passage was written men actually DID wear dresses…well, tunics actually. There wasn’t much difference in what men & women wore. But I do agree that the bible was written by men in order to control people, not just women.
Bible written to control women?
Here’s a passage from the Bible-
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for it, 26 that He might sanctify and clease it with the washing of water by the word.
vs 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife, loves himself.
That was a passage from Apostle Paul-hmmm sounds pretty controlling. Instructing men to love their wives so much they’d give their life for them. Poor women!
How are those men doing out there that don’t believe in following God’s word, are they loving their wives like Christ loved the Church, giving His life for it?
Hows that going for you?
That scripture passage was Ephesians 5:25,26
Guess you have never heard of kilts????
My hubby and I dressed up for Old Fashioned Sunday once (our usual clothes are pretty old fashioned anyway) and we bought yards of plaid for kilts. He wore the “great kilt” which is longer than the one they usually show men wearing, showing too much knee and claiming to be “going commando”. It also wraps up over the shoulder and is handy for carrying things instead of pockets. ) I could carry baby goats in it, (yes sometimes baby goats or chicks or ducklings came to church with us) It is good in the winter. But he also wore one at home on the farm and loved the air flowing through , he thinks it feels good. And don’t forget the men all wore robes, Jesus wore a robe. The high priests wore robes. And ever seen those beautiful sari’s worn by Indian women? We see them out and about shopping the same stores we shop at. They often have very loose pants under. Those are still covered by the sari mostly.
I have been wearing dresses to do all work for years now. I am a nurse and until the last 30 years, nurses were in dresses, though some have been made too short. I prefer to make my own for that reason. I was happy that “scrubs” come in many prints and colors now, so I made dress scrubs in prints. Wasn’t I surprised when one male DON (Director of Nursing) was offended at my dresses, and demanded “scrubs” (meaning pants, because he didn’t know nurses used to wear dresses, in fact one hospital I worked at in the early 90’s provided scrub dresses in blue to ID nurses as working in the labor and Delivery). So I made some traditional white nurse uniforms, made a little longer than usual. He could not complain. He was so offended by me, even though I had done nothing wrong, I think he thought I was a Christian, though I never told him I was, but my dress was enough to tip him off, and he was gay, and he thought I was hostile even though I wasn’t He had no idea I had a long history of being friends with gay men. And usually they were a lot of fun. He wasn’t very fun So when my probation date came up he wanted me to receive my termination check in person. He had harrassed me so hard, I just said “Thank God” and gave him a hug. I know he was taken aback at that, and then he assured me he would give me a good reference and gave me his contact information.
I’m sorry you see it as sexism, Bev. But I can assure you that just dressing differently and taking on different roles than men does not give Amish and conservative Christian women a lowly status. Quite the contrary – we’re honoured for who we are, rather than be forced to become what we are not.
I love wearing dresses! Nothing makes me feel more feminine than dressing in modest clothes the way God wants me too. I think dresses are more comfy than pants too. I 100% agree with Jessica! I am so blessed God gave me the PRIVILAGE of being a woman after His own Heart and that I can serve Him the way He wants me too. I can’t wait till someday I can be a mother and wife! So please Bev, don’t go around speaking for all women because I can assure you most Christian women do not share your views. You have your opinions and we have ours. I am blessed to be a future stay at home Mom, Godly wife and helpmeet, keeper of the home, dress wearing, covered woman after God’s own heart and design!
No offense, Kate, but I must say that Bev is totally right; the way people think God wants women to submit to men all the time is truly sexist. Oh, and not all women wear dresses; in fact, some of them can wear pants too; plus, I am a woman and, trust me, I always wear pants. Oh, and even your comment is no better; in fact, that tells me that you are probably defending sexism and I can tell by your comment, so, PLEASE, next time, think twice before defending sexism. Thank you, and I really hope that you have a nice, sexism-free day!
Giving up Rights is Jesus Way
I am sorry, but Jesus example is for us to lay down our “rights”.
Why do you suppose Mary was chosen to bring God’s Son into the world? She displayed a yielded heart to God. Sarah was honored, because she called her husband Abraham, lord (I Peter 3:6). (I can see eyes rolling now). But, it is true and the Word of God.
It is a priveledge to have a submissive heart to the Lord & to our spouse in so doing, it is obedience to God’s Holy Scriptures (Ephesians 5:22). Easy? No. But the husband has the hardest part, he is called to love his wife as Christ loves the church, willing to lay his life down for her! (Eph 5:23).
The word “sexist” should not be in the vocabulary of a Believer’s whose life is hidden in Christ Jesus.
I agree with Kate, and am inspired by a young lady who is not going after the world but is the very heart of the Lord -I don’t believe she’s implying wearing dresses is what is doing that for her, but simply sharing her own testimony. And I agree, having worn pants most of my life, that dresses/skirts are more comfortable-but not always more practical.
I wonder if any of this has to do with the rapidly growing trend of “cross genders”? Just a thought-
“…nominally subservient role to their husbands”
“…Amish woman will normally defer to her husband’s decisions”
“the reality is that the Amish woman is highly influential”
“Amish husbands often yield to their wives’ wishes”
““the man may be the head of the household, she is often the neck.”
No matter how many ways you want to try to spin it: Any adult human being who gives someone else final decision making ability over themselves…. or puts someone else as the ‘head’ of the household…has willingly made themselves subservient to another human being…and that gets ZERO respect in my book.
BEV you rock!!!!
I totally agree with you. I am from south America, and I can’t believe how it is possible that in this beautiful country there are women who think like so fanatic. I don’t know what to think about them…. It is just so nuts!!!!. they are washed brain women. POBRECITAS
Quoting from Bev: “No matter how many ways you want to try to spin it: Any adult human being who gives someone else final decision making ability over themselves…. or puts someone else as the ‘head’ of the household…has willingly made themselves subservient to another human being…and that gets ZERO respect in my book.”
Oh really? You mean a woman who works outside the home working for another human being gets zero respect? Does that apply to the women working in a company as well? For that’s exactly what they do… but they don’t work for a man who loves them and is willing to lay down his life for them. If your logic is good, it will apply to both sides; but I don’t think that’s your real reason for not wanting to work at home; whether you realize it or not. I’d much rather be at home working for my sweet hubby and children than working for a boss outside the home who doesn’t truly care about me. Who REALLY has it worse, you or me?
I am a SAHM but the difference is I don’t work FOR my husband…I work WITH him. He works outside the home & earns money so we can buy food & pay bills & have a home to live in. I care for the children & I cook & clean & do the paperwork for the business we own together. We work TOGETHER to provide a comfortable life for us & for our children.
I have equal say in how money is spent. I have equal say in how we raise our children. I have equal say in menial things like where to holiday. It is important for couples to present a united front where BOTH parents have an equal footing in order to raise healthy children. I don’t want to EVER be one of those mothers who, instead of disciplining the children says “Just you wait until your father comes home!”…it is a cop out & it is weak & kids pick up on it so quickly & pretty soon you end up with kids who have zero respect for Mum & only behave when Dad is around!!!!!
Having said that, I am happy to be at home with the kids & take a more traditional role in the home. I do occasionally have people ask if I feel like I have lost my identity as a woman or if I get bored but I’m too damn busy to be bored & my identity was never in jeopardy…I know who I am & that is all that matters!!!!!
Are Amish women
I’m a secular woman who without realizing it takes on some biblical aspects such as modest dress and deferring to my husband in a public setting. I’m in no way subservient or submissive. The operative words in your post are they give the authority to their husbands. It’s their choice in doing that because they understand that to be what the g-d of their understanding wants of them.
If their lifestyle isn’t for you then that’s ok to, but let’s not judge people for their choices.
The husband is not ruler over his wife. He makes all the major decision for what is best for her and there family. Its his job to watch over his family and wife. also you can look up 1 Corinthians 11 in the bible and it tells you the divine order. It says first comes god then men then women. so if a woman is trying to be above a man by making decisions then she is not following the bible.
“The husband is not ruler over his wife. He makes all the major decision for what is best for her…”
That, my dear, is a ruler.
“It[bible] says first comes god then men then women.”
So there’s your “book of subservience”. Why are you giving more credence to a book…written by MEN…instead of accepting the responsibility of being a full-fledged human being that has the mind to make her own decisions? Why are you listening to men who tell you that you are “less than”?
I’m 100% a feminist, and I probably look the exact opposite of an Amish woman; I’m the breadwinner and my husband cleans the house. Yes I do have problems that it is preached that women should effectually, be silent in the Amish community, but like our secular society what is preached is not always common practice. I’m sure there is a wide range of experiences inside the Amish community just as there is in the English world…I’m sure there are Amishwomen who are extremely influencial just as in the English world there are women who are victims of domestic violence and have no voice.
I’m not saying it is right, but reality can sometimes be very different from what is espoused by the moral authorities. Furthermore, it’s the responsibility of a woman to make her life what she wants it to be, whether it is to submit to a patriarchal lifestyle or to be a careerwoman. At the end of the day, a young Amish woman can choose not to be baptized in the church, and can choose to lead a life more common amongst English women.
I enjoy baking, crocheting, and other home arts but I also enjoy running marathons, t-shirts and jokes that would make your grandmother blush. I suppose at the end of the day the way I see it, every human being should be allowed to decide on who they want to be on their own terms and not allow someone else to dictate it too them. Whether that is a stay at home parent, a farmer or a CEO of a company.
I don’t think the choices are “submit to a patriarchal lifestyle or to be a careerwoman”. I think that a woman can choose to be a stay-at-home mom and to say no to a “patriarchal lifestyle”. Just because the man is working outside the home, and the woman is working inside the home…doesn’t mean he’s the boss. They are equals. They are both head of the household. Final decisions should rest with both.
And, yes, I most certainly do think it’s wrong when one person feels they should be subservient to another person. There’s is NOTHING right about it.
I apologize if I was unclear…yes I agree Bev, you can be a SAHM and be a full partner in a marriage.
Yes, it is wrong when one feels they have to completely submit to their partner’s wishes for one reason or another, but at the end of the day that it is her decision to let herself be submissive. If that makes her happy, then who are we to say otherwise? It’s not something I would recommend to anyone for various reasons but as long as it isn’t hurting anyone else then what is the issue?
I’m sorry im not trying to offend any one saying that women are under men.Its a personal opinion if you want to agree or disagree with the bible. A woman is not treated less then a man ……… (1 Corinthians 11:3 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church)
What is a book? A book is filled with words…ideas, facts, fantasies…written by a PERSON. YOU are a person. You have your own ideas, facts, fantasies. We are here to be ourselves…not to obey and live our lives by some other person’s rules.
If there is a God, don’t you think he/she would want you to use what has been given you?
I’ve posted a few times here, and I don’t want to be misunderstood. Yes, I do think that Amish women are shortchanging themselves in some ways…but so are non-Amish women. And to tell you the truth, overall…the NON-Amish women shortchange themselves to a much greater degree than Amish. Let me say, again, this is a blanket statement. I don’t mean for it to cover all non-Amish women. Most non-Amish women put themselves through the hideous ritual of painting their faces with gobs of make up every day. Most non-Amish women subject themselves to wearing foolish shoes that are uncomfortable, body deforming, and difficult to walk in. Many non-Amish women display their body parts as if they are a billboard advertising “I have no self respect for myself as a person”. Some non-Amish women are driven to shave almost every inch of their bodies…even parts that are never seen by the sun. There’s more, but I’ll stop here.
Overall, I’d say the Amish have more respect for each other and themselves…female AND male. They have not been assaulted by Hollywood or corporate America or any other hucksters demented images of what men and women are supposed to be.
Are western women liberated?
Thank you, Bev. I agree with you. If a woman in our society tries to wait until marriage to have sex, she is treated as though she is weird, particularly if her reasons are not religious. We are supposed to dress, shave, and behave like porn stars, wearing clothes and shoes that show off our bodies, not our minds.
We are supposed to take on the risk of producing a child out of wedlock, lest we be rejected as a prude.
We must hide our faces in makeup and shave our body hair, because a natural woman is no longer beautiful enough for our men.
What part of this describes a liberated woman?
To dress or not?
If you understand that much of what is considered Amish fashion, is the style EVERYONE wore in 1693 (or some such year)…women helped in the fields, milked cows, collected eggs, planted tobacco…all in long fabric dresses, probably wool or flax. If you don’t believe me, visit Williamsburg, or some other old-timey place. For the first several years of my life, as a young Mennonite, I too wore only dresses. Unless I am doing handstands, I didn’t need to wear pants.
As far as ‘freedom to be woman’…Amish women choose their husbands. They had all their lives to observe what kind of boy, and then man he would be. In Amish culture, there is a freedom to choose your mate, your religion, your life. There are consequences to all choices. In many cultures on this planet, women aren’t this free.
What more do you need to know?
“Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman.” —Family Life, Amish Monthly Magazine
You will find those exact words in 1 Corinthians 11:3. But don’t stop there, read the entire chapter and you will also see the reasoning for head coverings.
Dresses have been worn to do farm work and other manual labor for many years. Women didn’t wear pants at the time of the American revolution, but they certainly participated in work on the farm.
I’m quite comfortable wearing a dress to do work outdoors, on a hike, etc. If the dress is long and loose it is very comfortable to do any work in, as women have done for many, many years. Wearing a dress to work outdoors is very natural. Pioneer women did lots of hard work in very comfortable dresses. Plain dresses are modest, comfortable and practical. Aprons help keep a dress from getting too mucky.
In a truely Christian home, there is a diversity of rights among family members, they are all not the same but fair based on God’s Natural law not man made imperfect laws. The Amish are not exempt from the forces of a secular and more religious diverse society that surrounds them but they seem to navigate well through this labyrinth of conflicting mores’. Most religious people should learn much more and emulate these God centered, moralistic people; especially all the other denominations of Christ’s Church.
do amish women have rights?
I am English/Mennonite Member and I think the women get to vote but the leadership makes the agenda! How cool is that? they get to rubber stamp the leadership decisions reached in closed meetings and then they are forbidden or at least discouraged from disagreement..after all..WHO WANTS TO MARRY AN UNAGREEABLE WOMAN? SHE IS GOING TO FIND HERSELF UNATTRACTIVE,CHILDLESS AND UNEMPLOYABLE UNLESS SHE LEAVES HER HERITAGE AND HER SECURITY! Think about these things and ponder them in your hearts..BLESSINGS TO ALL WHO READ THIS!JAP
You do not respect women as people. (READ THIS before you argue)
John, in your comment, you say that a woman who is “unagreeable” will end up unattractive and childless (and unemployable.)
Why do you put these two things first? Do you really associate a woman’s worth with if she is attractive and has children? You are a shallow man. People are probably put off by this about you all the time, but choose to stay quiet about it because of how disrepectful you are when people disagree with you!
Women, though they have some differences, are as intelligent and free thinking as you and I and nobody should feel like they must always pretend to agree with someone for fear of rejection…. ESPECIALLY when those people have power over them in leadership!
As a lover of women, especially women who are independent and confident, I am both repulsed and amused by your comment… Maybe women frequently are “disagreeable” to you because you put your opinions and values over theirs and assume they should just agree with you! THINK ABOUT THAT! (see, I’m using excessive caps to try and communicate with you in your own language. Is it working?)
All you quoting the bible insisting men are above women…. how? How is one human above another because of their sex? There will always be people who are better at you than something, and worse than you at it, more powerful than you, and less powerful than you. Both men and women are in all these categories. So sit down, son.
Ladies who believe this slander, please respect yourselves… no one should ever feel inferior to another for something THEY CANNOT CONTROL, just like skin color. And to people saying women are inferior because they have less historical accomplishments… so do black people. Its because white people erase the accomplishments of black people to make them seem less. They didnt record them or give them as many opportunities throughout history. No one is above another for their sex, height, skin color, sexual orientation, or lack of disability. Treat people like people. Good night.
Good morning :-)!
I hope all is well with everyone to read this and even those who do not for God wants to bless us all but blessings come from obedience to God! I read the post and I do not want to argue and I will not argue but I must say that I think that you should go back and read the post from John & separate your emotionsso that you can truly see what John is saying John was not condemning anyone and if you truly know what the Bible says about how men should love their wifes and treat women you would realize what he saying here you’re the one that’s confused not John from what I took from John’s message that you attacked him when he used caps since this is through email and texting you cannot hear the emotions or the sincerity of what someone is saying so when you use caps it means they pay attention to this you seem like you are one that is very hurt and you allow your emotions to control you instead of the Word of God control you see if God Jesus Christ the Word of God and the Holy Spirit is your king is your Lord of lords it will control you and lead you in the goodness and not evil even in the Lord’s Prayer says lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil and if you go read James chapter 1 starting around verse 12 through 17 or 18 you will realize this God is a deliverer he does not hinder us God gets us out of bad and does not take us into evil!
I encourage you to not just take scripturesout of context so the best way not to do this is by doing that topical study about something and go directly from the Old Testament all the way through to the New Testament from Genesis to the Book of Revelation and do not leave any of the 66 books out because if you leave any of the ingredients out of a recipe then its final product is not good! now is it?
now please do not kill the messenger I am NOT here to create havoc just conversation and the best conversation is where people ask questions get answers make comments but are willing to be corrected if there comment is wrong now let’s be nice let’s not be mean unkind for you gotta go read the book of James of what God States about the tongue and the fire that it can Kindle. I hope that you have a wonderful day and maybe we’ll get to chat again if not may you seek God with your whole heart which is your mind your inner most part of your being because he says if you seek Him you shall find him! Watch the Bible prophecies unfold before your eyes biblical prophecy is unfolding right now and it’s coming judgement is coming are you ready its not my judgement it is God Almighty’s righteous judgment are you right with God? Because if you’re not you will be found guilty and there’s punishment imprisonment, but if you were righteous and you have an advocate in the turning when you go before the judge don’t be a good judgement and no imprisonment! Something to think about isn’t it?
Did you even read my post in its entirety? You are taking this conversation to a way different topic. You didn’t address any of my points except for when I mentioned scripture. Which, I might add, was not even me quoting it directly… I was only addressing the people on this forum using scripture as an excuse to treat women less than men. How do you expect us to get anywhere if you do not read what I am saying and address it directly instead of trying to change the subject? I am talking about how there are men–and women–here who do not respect women. And I think that’s wrong. Stay on topic, or leave.
Separate my emotions from what he is saying? This man is not speaking about the word of God, so why are you defending it? He is speaking about how women shouldn’t disagree with authority figures–NOT God, but HUMAN authority figures. He then goes on to, as I said before, reduce women to having children and being attractive. If you disagree, please explain how instead of changing the subject. This is all I ask of you.
Thank you, and God bless.
really? part 2
hello again, sorry I forgot to add something to that last post pertaining to what you stated about John’s comments about being pretty and and all these things okay Jared. This is what I want to address you stated that John was very shallow actually unfortunately Jared I believe that you’re the one that is shallow because you’re speaking carnally you’re speaking about the physical beauty where John is speaking about the inner beauty which if you go to 1st Timothy chapter 2 and read it speaks/talks about the man first and then it’ll be about the woman and it talks about the inward adorning and not the outward adorning then if you go over to 1st Peter chapter 3 it confirms what 1st Timothy chapter two talks about and then if you go to 2nd Kings the ninth chapter verse 30 you’ll realize what a whorish woman looks like and it also tells us in James chapter 5 not to put our riches in golden and silver and all these things in our clothing then if you go over to loop 12 chapter verse 32 I believe it starts and look what God says about where we should lay up our treasures on earth or in heaven it also states that we are to put our affections on things above God is above and not below which all this confirms Jared so really again you should really be prepared in your conversations before you state them and instead of attacking someone which is what you were doing and John was not because John was talking about the inword beauty not the outward beauty you will truly see and I believe anyone who reads these comments will realize that you’re the one who’s hating and being mean also if you go to proverbs chapter 31 at the very end I think it’s verse 29 30 or 31 it states that beauty is vain that means worthless but a woman who fears the Lord shall be praised please Jared take this with good and not bad I don’t mean this in a destructive manner but in a constructive way to help you understand. I mean it in good for correction because God States that the Word of God is profitable for doctrine which means teaching reproof which is a form of correction correction well that corrects us to get on the right path and instruction in righteousness that the man this means mankind so this can mean a woman as well may be perfect lacking nothing I believe that in the book of 2nd Timothy my brain’s not working at full speed yet this morning but I must go for now I’m getting ready to get ready to go to church may you have a great day and remember obedience brings blessings but the blessings only come from God so we must be obedient to God not man kind but God!
We are to speak blessings and not curses!
I would like to encourage you Jared to ask questions instead of attacking people ask them why they believe the way they believed instead of being contentious the Bible talks about a contentious woman and I believe that’s one of the things that John was addressing without saying that because the Bible talks down about a contentious woman maybe you oughta go read proverbs and see what God States about wisdom and foolishness about pride and humility about obedient and disobedient these would be a great study going to take you a little while and remember refer back 2 the stronges exhausted concordance of the Bible it’ll help you understand what it’s saying from the original context of Hebrew which is what the Old Testament was written in and Greek which is what the New Testament was written in so I would encourage you to study to show yourself approved to God a workman need not be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth Bible says that the Word of God is profitable for doctor and reproof correction and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect lacking nothing ok the other one says that God uses a five fold ministry and that is teachers preachers evangelist prophets and apostles for the perfecting of the Saints how do they do it by knowing what God says but unfortunately in most congregations they really truly don’t know what they’re teachingthis is why God’s Word tells us that we should study to show yourself approved Paul preach to the Bereans and he told them to go study the Scriptures to make sure he was right so go study go study stop being a cursor and start being someone who blesses ask questions humble yourself instead of being all prideful and lifted up cuz God says he hates the prideful and he’s going to knock them down he says if you exhaust yourself you shall be abased but if you humble yourself you shall be exalted John the Baptist stated that he must decrease that Christ God may increase in his life God wants us to humble ourselves to do it his way the Bible is believers instructions before leaving Earth or basic instructions before leaving Earth read the Bible get the instructions before you leave Earth to Jared and anyone else who reads this use the Bible as a roadmap on how to get to heaven that’s my encouragement I’m not Bible pounding or beaten anybody up with it I’m just trying to be an encourager Solomon called it goading people in the book of Ecclesiastes thank you for your time!
Thank you for this reply.
I apologize for replying to your previous comment without reading this one.
I do not believe I am attacking anyone. If anything, he is attacking women for disagreeing with leadership.
“they get to rubber stamp the leadership decisions reached in closed meetings and then they are forbidden or at least discouraged from disagreement..after all..WHO WANTS TO MARRY AN UNAGREEABLE WOMAN? SHE IS GOING TO FIND HERSELF UNATTRACTIVE,CHILDLESS AND UNEMPLOYABLE UNLESS SHE LEAVES HER HERITAGE AND HER SECURITY!”
If he is truly only advocating humility and modesty, why does he only address women?
You are also making an assumption when you say that he means “unattractive” to mean unattractive on the inside. But say I’m wrong, and he did mean that. That still does not excuse the other things he said. The message is the same either way: “Women should not disagree with male authority figures.” The only difference is in the delivery of the message.
Thanks for clarifying
I’ve just read 5 books on the Amish plus watched a few of the British produced documentaries. One of the things that struck me the most is what you called the Amish women’s sense of identity. They live in a society where their role is clear and their relationships to others are clear. I get the idea that this brings a certain sense of contentment to Amish women that is lacking in ‘English’ society in North America. As a 45-year-old North American woman, I grew up in a society where people are confused and uncertain about how to relate to members of the opposite sex; where so-called feminists put down women who choose to be homemakers; where the children are allowed to rule the household instead of the adults; where I’m exposed to a barrage of media images depicting women as mere sex objects; where children are left to be raised by strangers; and where family life takes second priority to ambition, success, and consumerism.
I am truly drawn to Amish culture. Even though I’m not one to enjoy washing dishes myself, the role given to women in their culture, and the respect and importance placed on their work, would give me a feeling of comfort and stability rather than a feeling of powerlessness or vulnerability. Having to wear a dress is a small price to pay for a feeling of community, family, and stability.
GOD BE THE TRUTH & EVERY man A LIAR!
I really enjoyed your post here Jen!
So the things in this email is not directed at you Jen it’s just putting it out there for everyone to read so they know which category there in which side of the fence they’re on so please no one quickly attack ask questions and you’ll get answers and then it’s a conversation and not a boxing match people can learn from a conversation of questions and answers but when you start slamming each other and beating each other up all you have is a gladiator sport and no one’s a winner no one!
I would like to share with you Jen Bravo Bravo I believe that you get it what the Amish do in these areas are absolutely biblical the problem is is not everyone that goes to church is born again whether they be Amish, Mennoniten German Baptist, presbyterian, Baptist, Pentecostal, Southern Baptist, methodist, or catholic!
Now I’ve met some from each sector of religion I’m not a religious person but I am a person that has a relationship with Christ that’s the difference between Judas Iscariot and the other 11 disciples Judas was religious and a murder where the other 11 disciples had a relationship praise God that I have a relationship!
Because denominations cannot save you they can only just take you to hell!
( check out verse 19 at this of Proverbs)
Proverb 6:14 Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. 15 Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. 16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, 19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Now Jesus talks about his kingdom and Satan’s kingdom in Matthew chapter 12:25 Mark 3:23 & Luke 11:17 but go read the whole chapter this is where people mess up when they read the Bible & they only read a scripture or two instead of the Scriptures leading up to and the Scriptures after if you only use a few ingredients to baking a cake and not all of them you don’t have a cake some people who chopped up and mutilate God’s Word isn’t getting all of God’s Word they’re taking out of it what they want to fit their sinful corrupt lifestyles!
what truly matters is the condition of the heart the heart is the mind not the blood pumping muscle in the chest! Now the benefits of living by God’s standards and applying them to our lives we will reap the blessings! (In the book Galatians chapter 6 not a very long chapter to read it it states what a man sows so shall he reap God will not be mocked) where today’s women are taught that they need to be standing on their own feet they need to be a career driven woman that takes them out of the house God says in the Bible that if a child be left alone it bring shame to the mother the mother is to be there to neuter to love and to be at home the Bible says that a woman’s place is to be a keepers at home! So while the mother is gone working the children are left unattended cuz it’s the man’s place to go out and work to take care of the wife and the family but to do so in the book of Genesis it says that Eve was created for a & to be a helper. Now with this being said people will want to attack this by saying that chauvinistic but it’s not it’s the way God designed it the man is to provide for the woman for she is the weaker vessel the Bible says no let’s just look physically women structure is not built as strong as a man structure in general & if people will study all of what God says about a topic instead of just a little bit they would understand what God is saying and then if they apply it to their life the way God says it in the Bible God will bless those people abundantly exceedingly and abundantly beyond all things that we can ever imagine the blessings that would pour out to us from God! But people are lazy and they don’t want to study the Bible states which is God speaking study to show yourself approved to God that a workman need not be a shamed rightly dividing the word of truth! Which takes us back to the title of this message God be the truth and every man a liar! If you’re not speaking the whole word of God about a situation and saying that the way that the Bible states it then you’re a liar pretty simple you don’t have to be a scholar to get that!
Now on with what is stated about a woman and her place after she has gotten married.
Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Now if she doesn’t want this life style then she should not get married and she shouldn’t have children see marriage comes first and then children not the other way because then it is a bastard child! Now no I’m not talking bad about children this is what God’s Word says and its truth! My encouragement to others if you’re going to talk about something and throw things out there you should go get all the information about something before you open your mouth because you truly get a big stamp of stupid on your forehead I’m not being mean but the Bible even says that a fool if a fool keeps his mouth he’s considered wise something to think about these are also the words of God don’t kill the messenger I’m not your enemy I’m only speaking what God States!
And by the way it says that they should not drink too much wine for all you people who have not studied your Bibles and even for some who have not come across this study yet and do study their Bibles there are two wines in the Bible what is fruit juice and one is fermented over a hundred years ago in the funk and Wagner dictionary wine had two definitions one was fruit juice the second definition was fruit juice with alcohol fermentation there’s definitely two wines in the Bible and the wine Jesus turned from water to wine if you do your study you’ll realize that it was not alcohol for alcohol is poison fruit juice is not! And for all you people who think that we’re to take an alcohol wine at the Last Supper it’s absolutely lie its ignorance absolute ignorance read the Scripture it’s right there and it tells us that his blood is not tainted his blood is not fermented which is the wine because a little leaven leaven with the whole lump and the bread which was symbolic of his body had no Lebanon it Levin is yeast , yeast is a bacteria, and bacteria is not clean! So the wine was not fermented because there would be a bacteria in it which causes a fruit juice to become poisonous!
Here’s another way you can tell throughout Scripture no got drunk naked passed out and send happened, lot his two daughters got him drunk he had sex with them and they had babies that is an alcohol beverage proverbs 20 verse 1 proverbs 23 29 through 35 proverbs 31 3 through 9 you can actually read 1 through 9 speaks against alcohol and it tells why people do it and alcohol is no different than any other mind altering substance Weatherby cocaine smoking marijuana smoking crack shooting heroin eating pharmaceutical drugs which the Bible in the book of Revelation chapter 18 verse 29 talks against people study God’s word and know the truth for God be the truth and every man a liar! I would like to add one other thing the Apostle Paul was a man with like afflictions like we are like we have but when he had an encounter with God God changed his mind he changed his heart and he become a man with a relationship with Jesus Christ and God and no longer a religious leader who did not have that relationship and he spoke and stated I speak the truth in Christ and I lie not. When we speak God’s Word in integrity with dignity adult heard and not tampered with but speaking it the way the God tells us to we become speakers of truth and not liars any longer may this message bless you and not curse you because all good things and all perfect things come from above perfect gifts everything it’s in James chapter 1 I believe it starts around verse 15 like this do not error my beloved brother you can go read the rest now thank you for your time and for all those who read the whole thing and do not want to attack because attacking is of the devil but blessings come from God even through people hallelujah and amen!
How do you define "man's clothes"?
I’m not Amish, but I live in a community where a lot of Amish people live nearby and work, so I see them quite often. They are even employed occasionally for some odd jobs by the manufacturing facility where I work, male ones at least, so I finally got curious enough about their lifestyle to look it up, and found this site. And since I’m a woman, I was especially curious to learn how their women are generally treated. I don’t consider myself a “feminist”, per se, but I am unmarried, independently supporting myself, and very happy with my single, self-sufficient lifestyle, which I guess is the antithesis of Amish lifestyle, especially where women are concerned.
About the restrictions on Amish women, this is how I feel: I don’t agree with it, as in I wouldn’t be able to tolerate it myself, but if it is what truly makes them happy, then I don’t have any problem with that, if it really is their choice. The only problem is, what if they are not actually happy with it? What can they really do about it? They can’t hardly leave unless they already have someone on the outside who is willing and able to help them get started on a whole new life, since their entire family will immediately shun them for leaving.
Any society that prohibits women from being lawmakers cannot be trusted to have women’s best interests in mind. The only possible reason for that, in any case, is to prevent unhappy and mistreated women from having choices and being able to make changes to benefit their situations that men don’t want them getting out of. Men can never be fully trusted to have women’s best interests in mind at any time. Even basically good men who truly love their women, and generally do right by them, are still flawed human beings who will make mistakes and selfish decisions at times, because no one is perfect. And it is never acceptable for a woman to just put up with it and let things slide when they know a man is wrong about something. That is just lazy and cowardly, and it is not right, or normal, for women to be that way, as much as many men may want to believe that is part of some natural order that automatically grants them special privileges based on their biology that they never had to do anything to actually earn.
The whole shunning thing is definitely not right, no matter how they try to spin it. From what I’ve gathered, it is ok for Amish people to associate with non-Amish people in general, and even use non-Amish people to help them with tasks, apparently, like driving them places since they aren’t allowed to drive themselves (which I find hypocritical (just like Jews employing Gentiles to do work for them on the Sabbath, but whatever), and they can work side-by-side with us without any problems. Except for non-Amish people who are actually ex-Amish, then it is a whole different story since they must be totally shunned by everyone in their former community? How does that make any sense? So parents will shun their own children, for the rest of their lives, just for deciding that the Amish lifestyle isn’t for them, and never speak to them again, let alone help them with anything, while they (the parents) continue to work and even socialize with other non-Amish that they aren’t related to? That just does not make any sense, at all.
I get the whole idea that they think they need some way to deter people from leaving their community in order to preserve the community, but the problem is, if that’s what it takes to preserve the community then there is something majorly wrong there. If it really takes that level of threat to keep people from leaving, then that just proves they are not happy where they are, and would otherwise leave if it weren’t for the extremely harsh punishment of losing all contact with their entire family forever.
About the clothing issue: I actually admire their general idea of having everyone dress plainly to avoid the pointless social problems that are caused by “fashion” in regular society, and skimpy or otherwise distracting clothes and jewelry. I wish more people would realize the virtue in that practice and also adopt it. However, I absolutely not agree with having a “law” that restricts women to wearing dresses, especially while working. Dresses serve no practical purpose whatsoever, and from the standpoint of modesty, I think it actually just serves to detract from that more than anything else.
And I think that men who really want women to wear dresses so bad only want that for certain reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to protect them in any way. Dresses just make women that much more vulnerable to predation: it is easier to rape a woman wearing dress, for one thing, and it makes a woman’s gender more obvious from a distance, hence easier to target and undress forcibly, plus they are harder to run in. There is nothing “safe” about that. They also look silly (to men, at least), which is precisely the way a lot of men want to see women, so it’s easier to dismiss them and not take them seriously when they are complaining about something.
If the argument is that dresses help to obscure a woman’s figure better than pants, then that is totally ridiculous. When pants are fitted correctly, as in adequately sized and not made to be form-fitting, then that is not an issue. When I served in the military, I wore the trousers that were issued to me, that were the exact same type that the males were issued, and there was nothing at all “sexy” or “alluring” about it. I also continue to wear such trousers to this day that in no way, shape, or form, achieve any such effect, because that is what I need to be able to do my job safely and correctly, in addition to avoiding unwanted attention or advances from the males I work with. I’m not trying to be a man, nor do I want to be a man, this is just how I survive. And I have found that it works quite well in both respects, which helps me feel more secure about myself and confidant that my abilities are more important, and valuable, than my looks.
There’s also the fact that if a woman is on a job that requires her to be up on a ladder at times, where there are men working below her, such as mine, then a dress or skirt is the worst possible thing that she could be wearing if modesty is really so important to her, as well as her male coworkers. Which makes me wonder, is an Amish woman also prohibited from climbing any ladders? And if not, are all the men nearby then required to look away whenever she does?
And there are many other good reasons not to be wearing dresses on the job: if you are working near any machinery, such as farming equipment, or in a factory, like I do, then the loose cloth of a dress or skirt can much more easily get caught and present a major safety hazard than if you are wearing pants.
The bottom line is, pants are always more practical and versatile for doing any serious jobs correctly, which is exactly why men wear them, and don’t want women wearing them, because they want women restricted to the home, being stuck doing all the stuff they don’t want to because they think they’re too good for it. And there is no situation where wearing a dress actually makes your job easier, unless it’s just housework, where there are no real safety hazards, and comfort is your only real concern. In which case, that is not a real job, because then you’re not doing anything a man couldn’t do for himself if he needed to. A real job is where you employ skills lacked by others, that are valuable for that reason, because they are actually needed by the community, and not just an expendable luxury, such as the services of a live-in maid/nanny always is.
Concerning the Bible: It does not say it is wrong for women to wear trousers, it just says that it is somehow wrong for women to wear “man’s clothes” and vice versa, whatever that means. But it doesn’t bother to explain why, or how to tell the difference at all, which I find pretty strange, like most other commands the Bible. As others have pointed out, most of the people back then (when the books were written), both women and men wore similar robes, and trousers didn’t even exist. So who exactly decided that trousers were man’s clothes, not to be worn by women? Men, that’s who, not God. Men who didn’t want women outside the home, making a life for themselves independently, because of their control issues that are in no way benevolent towards any women they claim to want to protect and cherish. Of course, it can always be argued that the Bible also says that women just have to do everything men say anyway, which it actually does, unfortunately. But I don’t believe in that, because it’s very clear to me that the Bible was written by flawed men who only looked down upon women, not a supreme being that loved them equally and wanted what was best for all humans.
Yours is a well thought out and heart-felt perspective, Jen. I only want to clarify one thing. You wrote:
“So parents will shun their own children, for the rest of their lives, just for deciding that the Amish lifestyle isn’t for them, and never speak to them again, let alone help them with anything…”
“I get the whole idea that they think they need some way to deter people from leaving their community in order to preserve the community, but the problem is, if that’s what it takes to preserve the community then there is something majorly wrong there.”
When Amish children reach an undefined “age of accountability” (varies widely – anywhere between 16 to 24 or so) they are encouraged to decide whether they want to make the commitment to join the Church… or not. Only those children who join the Church and agree to be committed to it for the rest of their lives will be shunned if they later leave. Those who leave before they join the Church will not be shunned; however, depending on how disappointed their parents are, relationships are often changed significantly.
Thanks for the clarification, that is good to know. But I don’t see how that makes it so much more justified. How many people who ultimately choose to leave Amish society for good actually do so before they make the decision to join the church? Are there any statistics on that? I’m guessing most of the time it happens after the fact, after the kids have grown up.
It’s my understanding it’s a one-time only deal that is only given to the very young once in their lifetime, when they might not be adequately prepared or emotionally mature enough to weigh the consequences realistically. Naturally, the vast majority of them are going to want to please their parents more than anything else at that point in their lives, and therefore choose to join the church just for that reason alone. Apparently it’s not until later in life, after they are more capable of thinking for themselves independently, and might start to regret some of the decisions they made when they were kids, that it becomes such a problem.
And more importantly, to me, how many Amish communities even allow females to have this choice at all? I’ve heard that in some, only the boys are given this so-called choice.
Yes, Jen, I imagine many Amish feel pressured to join the Church.
I have never known any Amish community that did not allow females to have the same choice regarding joining church or getting married that the men are afforded, but there might be some somewhere. I just don’t know.
Hi Jen, shunning is a bit more complicated than how you currently understand it. As Lattice mentions, non-baptized children are not shunned.
Generally a person is not baptised just because they want it, but also because the elders feel they are ready for it. The bishop will not baptise someone today who he must put out of the church tomorrow.
Amish youth have been exposed their whole lives to their religion, when they choose to join the church it is not done in ignorance.
Being baptised and joining the church is akin to being married, one makes a life long commitment to be true and faithful. If one breaks this commitment one is shunned. Similar in a marriage where if one partner is unfaithful, generally the other partner will seek a divorce. Unlike a divorce though, one can rejoin the church upon confession of sins and in seeking forgiveness.
It is those who refuse to confess their sins and seek forgiveness who will be shunned for life. Similar to a divorced person who refuses to give up their adultrous affair. For the Amish this adulterous affair that results in shunning, can be understood as a spiritual adultery with the world by one of their baptised members, with shunning being the spiritual form of divorce. As baptism is a corporate event involving the whole church, so is the shunning.
Just as one has to be married to be divorced, one has to be baptised to be shunned. How can a person justify accepting divorce for physical unfaithfulness, yet reject shunning for spiritual unfaithfulness? Is not the commitment of faitfulness at baptism equally as serious as the commitment of faithfulness at marriage?
As to pants, dresses are worn because God commands it. Search out the meaning of the Greek word ‘katastola’ in 1Tim. 2:9 to get a fuller understanding of why it is dresses in light of Deut 22:5.
The link below is an excellent explanation.
This is an area I totally disagree; shunning.
This is so wrong, when one strays from their religious beliefs (leave the church) this is when we are needed the most.People change their minds about where they want to live (shunning can happen if it is decided to move from the church district), the church they want to attend, and the Savior we want to obey. All these are the ordnungs’ ideas, not God’s. Some Amish do not study the New Testament,so they do not realize eternity is now. Do we prefer smoking or non-smoking. Old Order Amish believe they will know, once they die, depending on their good works. Knowing and accepting Jesus, and studying New Testament Scripture has caused splits in Amish ways.
I’m not a fan of it either.
Those who practice shunning believe they are following these scriptures:
I Corinthians 5:11-13
II Thessalonians 3:6
(there are others that suggest it, too.
Also, joining the church in order to marry. IFEEl this is ludicrous. HOW many join church just to marry.
Did I say that?
Well, I neither recall it, nor can I find it, but in fact, I have known people whose motivation to join church was to find a “good” spouse, also to create associations and contacts to promote their business or advance a political career. I like to think that perhaps when they get in the door, their hearts will be “pricked” and they will grow to know and love Jesus. I have met some people who say this very thing happened to them.
Try 2Corinthians 6:14 regarding not marrying an unbeliever. i.e. an unbaptised person.
Skirts vs. Pants
Hello all, just commenting on the interesting skirts vs. pants debate. My family and I choose to wear skirts, for reasons not worth going into, end they’re not hampering at all. We live in the city, but my mum came from a small town, and worked on the farm. Her and all the other girls wore skirts, but performed exactly the same tasks as men, without any trouble. Girls still work on the farm in skirts, some of them herding sheep and other, typically male tasks. I have ridden a horse and many bicycles in skirts, as have all my friends. One of my friends is a long-distance cyclist, and she wears only skirts. As to machinery, it is generally excepted that if it was dangerous to wear skirts, it’s ok to wear pants. At my school though, where the uniform was a dress (Australian), all the girls learned metal manufacturing and welding in skirts. Likewise, the boys learnt cooking and sewing. For everyone’s information, I an a member of the Plymouth Brethren, or just Brethren – not any type of Anabaptist. http://www.plymouthbrethrenchristianchurch.org
To leave you with a final thought, what about the South-East Asian farmer? Both males and females wear ankle-length sarongs that are only tied on, yet still work in the farm all day and raise enough food to eat and sell. Are THEIR skirts hampering them?
I haven’t read others’ comments here yet, so I hope I don’t duplicate anything. I know, too, that I probably tend to write comments that are too long so I’ll try to be a little more brief lol.
One of the most common themes I’ve heard people around my area mentioning about the Amish has to do with Amish women. I’d say, that of anyone I’ve ever talked to offline ( excluding family ), no one has ever believed Amish women had any rights or esteem in the eyes of others. There seems to be a pretty unanimous opinion among these people that almost all Amish women are repressed, abused, used, forced to wear ugly clothing and serve their husbands 24 hours a day, that they are “second-class citizens”, who are around merely to cook, bake, cater to, and act as “maids” for their husbands; everyone seems to believe Amish women are ignorant and uneducated, that they have no control over their own or their families’ lives, that all money ( even if earned by the wife or daughter ) becomes solely the possession of their husbands or fathers, and only by a male’s “gift” can any Amish woman even be parcelled out a bit of money for groceries. I’ve often heard that Amish women don’t receive any amount of respect from their hisbands, families, church leaders, etc., and even that Amish women are, more or less, slaves.
It is amazing I think, to hear the things that random people, acquaintances, and even friends have said about women who are Amish.
I know what the women’s movement and feminism were meant to do, but I think — in my opinion only — that an awful lot of today’s “feminists” have it wrong. I don’t believe a woman must work outside the home her entire life, her children growing up primarily in daycare, in order to be “equal” to a man. I don’t believe women must dress a certain way, usually more like a man, to be more “equal.” I believe if a woman sincerely believes in the values, ethics, restrictions, freedoms, and expectations of her culture or religion, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. In fact, among English women, I believe that having the ability to make a choice — whether to go to college or not, whether to wear a bikini or burqa — that is equality: being able to decide for themselves what is right for them.
And isn’t that what brought the Anabaptists to the United States in the first place, their desire to be able to choose what religion to follow without being killed? And, isn’t that one of the fundamental aspects of Anabaptist religions, the desire for the children of church members not be baptized, unless those children make that choice for themselves?
I personally believe that, like any society or community, there will be a full range of the way women ( and men, children, the elderly, and animals ) are treated and respected. Yes, the religion-culture of the Amish IS quite patriarchal, with men and women being expected, taught, and encouraged to remain within established gender roles at home, at school, at work — everywhere. But (without getting into the complications of shunning, abuse, the “Bann,” etc. ) are traditional gender roles so horrible? I know Amish societies are constantly ( if often slowly ) changing and evolving, but if I simplify: the husband/father goes to work in fields, factory or shop, while the wife tends the home — she works at raising their children, keeping a nice home, and feeding the entire family off of both the man’s earnings and often of food she has grown, herself. The children, then, grow up in a home with a loving mother, who cares for their needs, teaching them by example and making sure they are raised in a safe, stable, loving environment. And, she is able to do this because her husband is able to work to provide the money necessary for the family to have sufficient food, sufficient clothing, a decent home, and he teaches by example, as well. It just seems like a “wheel” to me; everyone in the family has a “place,” and as long as that “wheel” turns, there is likely safety, security, love and contentment to be found. Again, I know that is oversimplified a great deal! But it seems to me that English society lost some of its ability to provide those same feelings of safety, contentment, and love, when most women — understandably, sometimes by necessity, but I believe more often by choice — became divorced from those traditional gender roles.
Maybe I’m a dreamer. *smiles* And I know all these issues go far, far deeper, but THIS is MY version of a SHORT comment, and I’ll not subject you all to what would pass as a regular, let alone a LONG comment from me, haha! I hope I didn’t offend anyone — this is ALL my own opinion, simply my own thoughts, which in the scheme of the world truly account for very, very little-to-nothing. I was raised by a feminist who was also a stay-at-home Mom, ( the ONLY mother who didn’t work outside the home in my class at school ), who quit working a very good job in order to raise my siblings and myself, while my Dad worked to provide the money that enabled her to do so, and as a result, maybe my perspective is a bit different from most people’s. [ I don’t judge, honestly. Whether a parent stays home with children or works, that is up to them. I think maybe some children would benefit from having a parent at home all the time, but this is often simply impossible or extremely hard to achieve, especially in this today’s financial world, and with so many who are raising children alone. ]
I would love to be able to stay at home and tend to home needs. I would not feel the least bit slighted. In my opinion, being a Godly mother and wife are two of the most important professions.
Why have children if daycare, or grandma and pa are going to raise them?
I don’t understand the problem with being a stay-at-home mom. Yes, I know that due to single parenthood, for some, this is not possible, but then why is there so many single parents?
Maybe something can be learned by watching our Amish neighbors and observing some of their ideas.
Just FYI, it seems that your ad side bar is now covering up the content of your website; it is too far to the right. I’m viewing the site in Google Chrome, and keep having to highlight all the text laying underneath the ads and paste them into word so that they are legible. I hope you can get that fixed!
Thanks for bringing it up m, sorry if it’s still difficult to view…this happened once before but it was seen only in a very problematic and hardly-still-used version of Internet Explorer (version 6).
I use Chrome all the time and have never seen this problem before, it is usually quite reliable. In fact I just ran a screen test for a few dozen browser configurations and none of them exhibited this issue including all the versions of Chrome
Is it still happening for you? Possibly a local issue? Do you have an older version installed or an unusual configuration?
Comment on do Amish women have rights
I was interested in the no pants/jeans debate. I grew up in a strict religious community where women were required to wear dresses/skirts, keep their hair long and wear no make up. I left when I was nearly 30 and entered the “outside world” It took a long time to adjust but I obtained employment in an office and was able to rent a house in a pleasant district. The other women in the office regularly wore black pants but I still felt more comfortable to keep to skirts until one day a strange feeling came over me as if to say “Rebecca why shouldn’t you wear pants”
I prayed hard and still had the same thoughts and eventually decided to try on some pants in a clothes store. I found them surprisingly comfortable and bought them. My legs felt odd encased in material for the first time ever and I kept looking at myself in the mirror – not recognising the reflection! When I wore them to the office for the first time nobody noticed. I expected everyone to say “look at Rebecca – she’s wearing pants!”
I now have several pairs and wear pants two or three times a week. I recently met a younger woman from my former community and she confided to me that she always wanted to find out what it is like to wear pants. As we are the same size I let her try on a pair of mine and she also found them comfortable. Whether she will decide to join the “outside world” to be able to wear pants openly, I don’t know.
One wonders how many other women in religious communities have a secret desire to find out how it feels to wear pants
The bible is not the true word of god, but the written interpretation of man. As Jesus did NOT write the bible himself. Be weary where you hold your faith, God gave us a brain for us to use them critically.
Hi B220. This is a debate that, if not resolvable by practiced theologians, will not likely be resolved here. Still, you might want to consider where the opposition stands:
II Timothy 3:16-17 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (This was, by the way, written before the N.T. was compiled)
Jesus recognized the Old Testament (N.T. hadn’t been written yet) as being the inerrant Word of God. Examples: Matthew 5:17,18, Matt. 19:3-5, Matt 22:29, Matt 26:54, Mark 10:6-8, Matt 12:40, Matt 24:38,39, Luke 16:31, Luke 17:26-29, Luke 24:27, Luke 24:44, etc. Jesus did correct the Pharisees in matters pertaining to the Oral Law, but never the Written Law.
In John 14:26, Jesus says that the Holy Spirit will teach them what God wants them to know and will help them remember the words Jesus spoke. Most Christians(at least the ones I typically rub elbows with…literally!) believe that the New Testament is the evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit. They simply will not be swayed by someone telling them that it’s not the true word of God, or suggesting they use their brain.
Man so desires to cling to his own wisdom, making it impossible to fully accept God’s Word. That’s why Jesus says in Matthew 18:3, “…Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Man continues to attempt to understand the mind of God, but God makes it clear that it’s impossible (Isaiah 55:9). It is a life of frustration one lives who tries to make sense of the Creator with the mind of a man. I heard it once described: It’s like a tiny flea buried in the fur of a tiger’s back, attempting to describe what a tiger looks like. Foolish, don’t you think? Equally frustrating is trying to turn the minds of believers who decide daily to trust and obey God’s Word.
Thank you for your perspective. Presumably it’s with concern that you desire to “correct” believers regarding the Bible’s Inspiration. Most of us have developed much more faith in God than in man, and will not be persuaded. May God give you the strength to lose yourself. It is a most liberating life. You can find the way in those Scriptures you mentioned earlier, only read them as a little child would.
Lattice, wonderfully said! At one time I would have agreed with B220, having been brought up in a very liberal, education-oriented community. About six months ago I gave up my faith in man and decided to put all my faith in God, including his word. It is interesting how born again Christians are regarded as ignorant by non-believers, and I was once guilty of such. I wish I were as good with words as you are! Thanks for your statement.
You’re too kind, Naomi.
I am so happy to hear that you found “life.”
@B220 – what proof do you offer that the Bible is not the true word of God? That it is merely man’s understandings.
You can only say this out of haqving no indepth understanding of the Bible and I would venture having never read it from cover to cover or looked at a Bible commentary.
But to be fair, if you can show me one other book like the Bible, a collection of 66 individual books, written by 40 different authors over 1600 years on the same topic that traces the history of one family’s linage and destiny, namely Adam and Eve, and their dealings with God as well as that of their descendants, climaxing in a 4500 year old promise of the birth of Jesus, made to Adam and Eve by God, confirmed by every Old Testament author, then I would say your statement is valid.
But until you produce an example of such a biblica of books, all free from historical, medical and scientific errors, with accurate prophesies predicting future events that later authors and history show to have occurred, I will just have to regard your statement as one made in total ignorance of what is actually contained in the Bible.
And I believe I can say this with total confidence, even if Jesus had personally written the NT Bible Himself, you would no doubt still reject it, just as you reject the OT five Torah books written personally by Moses, for if you have not believed Moses, why would you believe Jesus?
The wisdom of man is foolishness in the sight of God. Go and study the Bible to show yourself approved and not ignorant.
The Word of God is inspired of God. Yes, man wrote the Bible when inspired by God.
Women wearing Pants
What are your thoughts on women wearing pants. I was into my 30s before I put on a pair of pants for the first time.
Mine are all dress pants and designed for women. I prayed for guidance on the subject for sometime before I started to wear pants and I got a strong sense of feeling that it was not wrong to do so.
I recently met a girl from my former community who always wanted to know what it felt like to wear pants and she tried on some of mine.
I just wonder how many women in our communities who wear skirts only have a long held desire to try on pants.
Have you ever worn pants?
I recall an earlier post you wrote regarding your struggle with this. I’m touched by your desire to live a life pleasing to God.
Most refer to this verse to argue why women should not wear pants:
“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God” (Deuteronomy 22:5).
At the time this verse was written, both men and women wore robes and mantles, most like male and female versions of dresses. Women’s had longer and heavier fabric. Pants did not even exist for many centuries. Although I take God’s Word literally, I also think it’s important to consider what was meant at the time. Since God (at the time) likely wasn’t saying “Men wear pants and women wear dresses,” He more likely was saying that we should not try to dress ourselves in a way to appear masculine/feminine if he created us to be the other.
We’re also called to be modest(I Timothy 2:9). Some might argue that pants are more form-fitting, and therefore less modest than skirts/dresses, but everyone knows that if one desires to draw attention to their figure/physique, they can do it in a dress or in pants. No one will likely ever agree as to what is modest enough, even among “plain” groups. I am therefore thankful that we have this insight into the mind of God: “…for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart” (I Sam. 16:7).
So to answer your question, that is where I am in my spiritual journey, continually examining my motives surrounding my actions. Daily I find areas in need of repentance. Do I catch myself adjusting my posture in the presence of men? Do I desire to wear garments which are particularly flattering to certain areas of the body? What about the purity in the use of my eyes, my smile? Do I do ANYTHING to draw attention to myself, rather than to only be a servant of God, allowing Him to work through me? Do I strive to gain the approval of “man,” or to be God-pleasing (I Peter 3:3-4?
I think that the bottom line is that the world, including those who attempt to separate themselves, will never agree on the outward terms of “modesty.” God did not give specifics of dress, other than modesty, but He certainly knows our hearts and minds. I think the litmus test is this: If wherever I were going I expected to see Jesus, what would I want to be wearing?
I grew up in a Christian home wearing pants. Today I only wear modest dresses/skirts, but I do not believe the Bible tells me only “dresses/skirts.” For me, it is about separation and witness. Something tells me that you look appropriately modest in your pants and I think you (and your friend) should enjoy them!
AH Lattice you have been so on target this whole time, but your last paragraph encouraging Christian women to wear pants is dangerous. We must not confuse two separate issues and thereby teach error.
Modesty has nothing to do with the wearing of pants. Modesty is a separate issue. Any clothing worn should be modest.
However the wearing of dresses or pants carries with it the accusation by God of being an abomination. Encouraging people to be an abomination before the Lord is rather serious. After all, do the abominable get to enter heaven?
Thus the wearing or not of dresses is a salvational issue. Personally I do not see how women who wear pants, clothing pertaining unto a man, an abomination, can expect to enter heaven.
It amazes me when a hear Christians say that homosexuals will not enter heaven because they are an abomination, yet pants wearing women will. Does God have double standards, where one abomination is excluded while another is included? I think not.
And as to being a witness for the Lord, can an abomination be one?
If yes, then let us ordain homosexuals and stop being hypocrits, but if we are to refuse practicing homosexuals church membership, then let us with equal vigor refuse pants wearing women church membership. Let us consider all abominations as eqaul before God.
Seems that the secualr world is not so confused after all about calling Christians hypocrits, this is a typical example of such hypocracy, condoning one abomination while condeming another.
Please do read the follow article.
I don’t know, Dirk.
If what you wrote, “Thus the wearing or not of dresses is a salvational issue,” is true, then there would have to be many, many more areas where believers have the opportunity to earn (or improve the odds of) salvation. I think most Christians believe that Salvation is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. One might even argue that MOST of man’s actions and thoughts are hated by God. Even our “good works.” (“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;” Isaiah 64:6 KJV)
Clearly, women wearing pants is important to you, based on the passage in Deut. 22:5. Does that mean that a woman can’t slip on her husband’s gloves to start the car, or his muck boots to trudge to the mailbox? What about how society traded in the woman’s shawl for the more practical, female-version of a man’s button up coat? Where does it begin and end?
I did find that article very interesting. Still, I wonder if the author didn’t stretch the meaning of what the KJV called “breeches” to better support his argument, where most other versions referred to the holy linen undergarment for priests as “underwear.”
I value your opinion, but I just don’t think there is enough scriptural evidence to say that a woman wearing pants is risking an eternal home in Heaven. I still trust that God is more concerned about the condition of the heart, over inseams.
Hi Lattice, just to clarify I don’t think that the wearing of a dress will lead to salvation, that is only through the blood of Jesus. But Jesus does say that if you love Me obey my commandments. John 14:15 and if we don’t keep Jesus commandments then we are liars and the truth is not in us. 1John 2:3,4.
So now if 1Tim. 2:9 is limiting women to wearing only a modest ‘katastola’ type dress in light of Deut. 22:5, then not obeying and wearing pants would be rebellious disobedience, and I don’t see how the rebellious disobedient liars will be entering heaven.
To be clear, doing the action of wearing a dress does not save, but by not doing the action it indicates a more serious issue of a lack of submission to God’s decrees by following the ways of worldly standards and not God’s standards, and in light of James 4:4, such people are called enemies of God, are enemies of God to enter heaven?
It is obedience or lack thereof to God that is determining salvation, which in this instance, dresses versus pants being the battleground of that obedience.
Well at least that’s how I understand it best. As to the wearing of gloves and work boots, I don’t think such items strictly qualify as garments, their purpose is not to clad the body modestly but to protect the body when doing a specific task and would fall under a work-tool category for which there is no prohibition.
The thing I really don’t understand, is if there is even just an outside chance for women that the wearing of pants does displease God, as the conservatives argue that it does, why do liberal women play with fire by doing it? Surely even a hint of displeasing God would make one cautious in this area, yet I find more defiance than caution in this area from both men and women alike.
The vehemence and anger expressed by the pants wearing supporters over this topic when questioned about it is amazing and truly makes me believe that this topic is a dividing line between the saved and unsaved. Else why would is upset people so and cause such defiance?
Daryl: “The thing I really don’t understand, is if there is even just an outside chance for women that the wearing of pants does displease God, as the conservatives argue that it does, why do liberal women play with fire by doing it?”
The same reason someone might be willing to risk not being Baptized by immersion. And numerous other things. They simply don’t believe that’s what the Bible is saying to do.
Yip I agree and cannot understand why people who do not accept the Bible as God’s truth, bother to call themselves Christians.
If they want to live like the secular world, just do it and stop being a hypocrite by identifying with Christianity. Clearly they need to read James 4:4. and 1John 2:3-4.
As to baptism being only valid by immersion, we can discuss this when Eric does a post on this.
Ha! I don’t anticipate Erik will open that can of worms. I imagine he is watching this thread with his fingers crossed, ready to remind us that this is an Amish-related discussion forum and direct us to the many others out there that are aimed at theology and religious debate! Many readers might not appreciate the tangent on which I have wandered.
I was only trying to make a point about the differences in Scripture interpretation, as a possible explanation as to why so many seem to ignore what others see so clearly. Seems you understood what I was saying.
Lattice while you are right that I probably won’t be doing a post on that particular topic, I certainly don’t mind these side discussions that might develop off of a main topic.
Okay! I’m glad to hear that. I have sometimes been concerned that you might think wandering off topic was aggravating, if not a little selfish. Thanks for your patience!
I didn’t realize I wore dresses/skirts so often until a fellow Church member said “You always wear dresses!” I am just more comfortable in this fashion. Yes, I do wear pants/slacks out in public, even to church, and although there are those who don’t wear pants (and can’t tell you why. This is not using your own brain.)
I don’t feel wearing pants damages my witness nor will cause me to spend eternity in the smoking section. (It is not a perty sight to wear a dress when attending children in the nursery.)
Pants v Skirts
I agree with you Dixie. I do not feel any less a devoted follower of Christ since I started to wear pants. I still regularly wear skirts/dresses to services but I appreciate the freedom to choose to put on a pair of pants during my daily life.
I just wonder how many women who do not or are forbidden to wear pants have a secret desire to find out what it is like to wear them. I had a rear curiosity to find out which was only satisfied when I tried on my first pair and I was not struck dumb or hit by a bolt of lightning!
Seriously Rebecca, a bolt of lightning, struck dumb? Read Matthew 7:21-24 for the answer.
The women of the PA sect are snobs. They aren’t allowed to consort with men who aren’t Amish. They will turn their noses up at you. That is not what Christ taught to do.
The Amish do not follow the principles of Jesus Christ. He destroyed the laws and the walls between groups of people. Calling them out of the world and in spirit. The Amish do not adhere to the ways of Jesus. Because if they did, instead of hiding behind Amish fashion and laws, they would be out in the communities reaching others like disciples. But they instead operate like a cult. It doesn’t matter if their way of life seems better than the traditional one. In the eyes of the Lord, they are no better off than the Pharisees. Another denomination that shuns others. Even the devil wears a smile some of the time. But that doesn’t make him good. Christ told us there is no one on Earth that can be considered good. Only GOD is good. There is nothing we can do to impress or please GOD on this Earth. Only through Christ in the midst of all people can we walk in Spirit. We cannot hourde salvation. It isn’t possible. And only a fool would try. I remember in that program Amish Paradise where that family left the Amish because they found that the church wasn’t teaching what Christ taught. And that they should evangelize for GOD throughout the public. Living in the Amish cult is nothing more than one of many ways to hide from the TRUTH by using a false “truth”. The Luteranism church that governs the Amish is not based on Truth. Its based on a German Bible that is no better than Catholicism or any other denomination. Christ has no denomination.
Doesn't match my experiences...
jj346278, I can’t speak to what you have experienced, and certainly can’t speak to the why’s behind the experiences or the interpretations of them; but I can say that my experiences have been exactly the opposite. I can totally understand how an Amish person could get tired of being gawked at — and let’s be honest, we as tourist in their areas often forget that they are real people with real feelings, and act like they are spectacles in a freakshow or the zoo. Or point a camera at them and they will likely turn away — but that’s not a lack of courtesy (at least on their part). But having stayed in the house of Amish people (including some in PA), and having attended church services in two different congregations (in PA), I for one can vouch that all the Amish are *not* as you describe. And the same is true for any Amish that I have tried to respectfully speak to in communities covering five different states to date.
I like part of that life, as hermits (probably daydreaming about their women)
I love having read a lot of this fellows. They have endured the secular world I had to live to get my bread ($) or anything I thought it was needed when I was young.
I won´t personally surrender to such “Church” leadership or custums, but I´m honest at admiren both genders and those traditions (very healthy, by the way).
I´m an outsider (no doubts) and I would abandon my secularlity if God had led me into a group like that, simply for they have shown wordly detachment (I don´t have electricity my house, but I enjoy using my time with computers and the things I can do with such electric power I don´t have my own home).
The beauty of those women is a gift! I hope none of those wives were misled, hurt or abuse. They are a good working hand and the best help a man can receive from God, particularly for the way their are dressed so modesty: They show nothing to draw a man´s eye. Isn´t that a blessing today? Each time I take the subway I´m lured away when I looked at somebody´s women (I´m learning to close my eyes).
Praise GOD for eyelids Antonio for looking away on the subway! I would like to say to you that God has called you and anyone else who is surrendering to his name to come out of the world to come out of her an acts chapter 16 verse 18 also in Revelation chapter 18 verse 4, 2 Corinthians 6:16-18, 1 John 2:15-17, Acts 7:41 (the computer might just be your golden calf!)
I heard this once & i believe it! What fills your life controls your life & what controls your life is your God now my question for anyone reading this (by the way the answer is for you to know it’s not for me or anyone else! ) is this is your God start with a little g or a BIG G? Because HE & ONLY HE IS THE KING OF KINGS AND THE LORD OF LORDS & HE’S THE ONLY ONE THAT IS THE WAY THE TRUTH & THE LIFE! so there’s so many scriptures that call of of us out of the world & not to be partaking in her sins sports, celebrities, music performers which turns into idolatry lifting up corruptible man kind instead of looking up the incorruptible God which will draw all men unto him for salvation but everybody’s looking up mankind instead of the incorruptible God! My encouragement to you Anthony used to study your Bible more and know what God truly says stead of being swept away with false teachings false doctrines like the Bible teaches us to watch out for lot was instructed by God to get out of Sodom and Gomorrah and he left and his wife chose to turn back because she didn’t care where God was taking her to her she wanted to go back to that sinful city the city where in right now we’re to be pilgrims passing through not residing I would encourage you to truly see God in what he says and not these false teachers preachers prophets and all these people who will lead you astray I have a friend who’s Amish I’ve been to their home I’ve eaten in their home those women are not deceived they’ve been trained up in the way they should go and when they grow old or not the park that’s proverbs chapter 22 verse 6 train up a child in the way he should go and when he grows old he will not depart! These women have been raised from a child to be modest like 1st Timothy chapter 2 1st Peter 3 and so on even in the Old Testament declares how the women are to be and not to be and then it’s everyone’s choice do they want to be wholly or do they not do they want to trust in the everlasting God where do they want to trust in what they see instead of what they cannot see for the things we see or temporary but the things we don’t see your everlasting the true worshippers of God worship Him in spirit and in truth for God is a spirit and God also be the truth and let every man be a liar!
Do Amish Women Have Rights?
Do Amish women have rights?
They have the right to:
Be equal partners in their marriages
Be the head of the household
Control their half of the household accounts
Wear their hair free
Cut their hair
Be a Minister
Be a Bishop
Every Amish woman has every single right that a non-Amish woman in the United States has.
Whomever wrote this in the original post….:
“Though feminists may have problems with what they perceive as the Amish woman’s position, others have noted that Amish women seem to have achieved a degree of contentment that many modern feminists continue to pursue, with less satisfactory results.”
….must not know any feminists. Feminism has a very simple definition…
“Equal rights for women and men.”
I am a card-carrying Feminist and have been for all my thinking adult life. And not only am I okay with Amish women wearing dresses and not cutting their hair, I am okay with Amish women who submit to their husbands. Why? Because it is their choice. It is their right under the United States Constitution and they are not forced to submit, or wear dresses, or work at home. Just like Amish men are not forced to wear a beard, or drive a buggy, or not use electricity. It’s a choice. They all have every right (including religious rights) that non-Amish people enjoy. Muslim women have the right to wear a burka in this country. Amish women have the right to wear pins instead of buttons.
Feminism has nothing to do with it. And that paragraph I quoted plays into old stereotypes of Feminism – and that bothers me more than anything else on this thread. If the questions is – do Amish women have rights? The answer is “Yes!”.
God bless America!
I might regret this… but I saw this post and thought of a poem that was written in the current copy of an Amish magazine and since I’m currently reading this issue, I had it at my desk. I’ll share the poem for what it’s worth but in hopes it will not “stir up any wrath.”
The Rights of Women
The rights of women — what are they?
The right to labor, love, and pray,
The right to weep when others weep
The right to wake when others sleep.
The right to dry the falling tear,
The right to quell the rising fear;
The right to smooth the brow of care,
To whisper comfort to despair.
The right to watch the parting breath,
To soothe and cheer the bed of death;
The right when earthly hopes all fail,
To point to that within the veil.
The right the wanderer to reclaim,
And win the lost from paths of shame;
The right to comfort and to bless
The widow and the fatherless.
The right the little ones to guide,
To simple faith in Him who died,
With earnest love and gentle praise,
To bless and cheer their youthful days.
The right to live for those we love,
The right to die that love to prove;
The right to brighten earthly homes
With pleasant smiles and gentle tones.
Are these thy rights? Then use them well:
Thy silent influence none can tell;
If these are thine, why ask for more?
Thou hast enough to answer for.
comparing apples and oranges
Judith, isn’t this a little over the top idealistic? I can appreciate that Amish society shouldn’t be dismissed as useless and incapable of having anything to offer in the twenty first century, but isn’t it possible to go too far in the other direction? Having the right to choose under the constitution doesn’t mean they are universally doing so. The women’s rights movement arose, at least in part from the impoverished and oppressed conditions women at the time were living in. It is a mistake to assume that the Amish are somehow magically exempt from those conditions. It is also a dangerous and preposterous supposition for a self proclaimed feminist, who is a beneficiary of the women’s rights movement, to assume Amish women are making choices on par with her own understanding of the term.
Ah, I see my other comment was awaiting moderation....
I see my response is awaiting moderation, most probably because of the name of magazine I linked. Too bad. I will try to rework my response, in the meantime I will omit the name and copy and paste and see how it looks….
Thanks Geniene for responding. I wasn’t sure if anyone was going to want to argue that the other way. And it’s always fun when there’s an equal adversary to bounce ideas off of. Even better another feminist (I think).
First – the idea of consensual submission is not an easy one – even for us hardcore feminists. And since the power structure is akin to sexual submission I will use it as metaphor for an intro to the idea we’re talking about which is similar, albeit more complex.
Good thing I subscribe to (sorry, folks, that’s the name of the magazine, it’s a feminist scribe that I have to hide from polite company when they come over) as well as Family Life which is an Amish magazine monthly (I see Mark subscribes to that as well since that poem is from there, but I will quote a different article from that issue). Both contain articles about submission. I’ll direct just Geniene (and no one else for fear of offending the sensibilities of the genteel on this site, please) to the article in magazine here:
Choice in Submission
Well, I think there has to be a lot of assumptions in place for my thesis to work….
1. Amish women must know their rights.
2. Amish women must choose an anti-freedom stance of submission
3. Amish women must have an alternative to submission
These are pretty big assumptions on my part. But I don’t think they are in the realm of the improbable.
After you read the article (and I mean it as metaphor for submission in all parts of life, not in that article) we can discuss if choice exists for Amish women.
I look forward to debating this with you Geniene. 🙂 Ah, at last
Okay, so that came through...
I might have to quote from that article, since the site wouldn’t take it, so it might take me some time.
..sorry, that article link might be too much for the site to handle. I will think of an alternative. No need to free my prior comment from limbo. Sometimes restrictions make one more creative, so it will be a fun challenge.
I'm not Amish but I would like to comment
hello I’m Astrophel I’m a guy what happens when a young Amish boy want to sew, cook, tend to the children or do the “woman’s” job or a young Amish girl to do the “man’s” job shouldn’t they be able to if they want and those women say that they’re happy when they’re probably indoctrinated into liking this also what are the Amish’s views on the LGBTQIA+ community as I heard they’re not good as a gay man I know it’s not a choice