Amish speak both English and Pennsylvania German or “Dutch” Amish speak a dialect of German known as Pennsylvania German, or Pennsylvania Dutch. There are some similarities with dialects of German spoken in Europe today, though Pennsylvania German includes numerous English words. Accents and manners of speaking Pennsylvania Dutch can vary between communities. Additionally, the so-called […]
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Do you know if the Amish of the 1750′s spoke English as well as “Pennsylvania Dutch?”
Thanks!
Yes Greg, they spoke the same language just with a lot less english within it!
Your Welcome,
Sally-sue
greetings,
is there a dictionary or phrase book ou can reccomend that would help me
learn some basic penn. dutch?
thank you
Wrong term
No amish will ever tell you they speek pennsylvania dutch. They dont, never have and never will. I say this because Dutch refers to the Netherlands or Holland NOT Germany. The amish speak Pennsylvania Deutsch, Deutsch being german. It is equivalent to calling someone from japan Chinese, or irish being called scottish.
So please it is pennsylvania deutsch not dutch. it is a mispronunciation and a mistranslation.
"Dutch" is fine
Christopher, I think I know what you are getting at, but you are incorrect. Many Amish will in fact say they speak “Pennsylvania Dutch”, or just “we speak Dutch” (and not “Doitch” (Deutsch) 🙂 )
However the term came about, “Dutch” is how it’s pronounced (at least when we’re speaking English) and also the common way of writing it when referring to the language (“PA German” is common as well and in a sense might be more “accurate” since it is a German dialect). But they are not referring to what they speak in the Netherlands.
The term “Dutch”–written that way–is widely used not just for the language. For instance some Amish businesses incorporate the term as a pseudo-synonym to allude to their “Amishness” without saying so explicitly (Dutch Country Cabinets), there are Amish with the nickname “Dutchie”, etc.
An : Erik Amish Amerika
Es ist ja klar sollte die Amish die \ ihre Sprache aus Neederland stammen da sollte die neederländer sie auch diese verstehn, und ohne mühe. Plat-deutsch oder Talk op Plat ist dagegen üblich gebraucht in Schleswig – Holstein, von Hamburg bis an die dänishe Grenze. Das alemannische wie meine Mutter Sprache ist, wird in der Schweiz im Elsass, Baden-Würtemberg und teil in Bayern gesprochen. Alemannisch ist eien älter sprache als Hoch-Deutsch. Der “Stamm” der alemannen kammen runter von “Nord der Elbe” im Jahr 300 nach unsere Zeitrechnung. Damals waren “Nord der Elbe” altso, Schleswig-Holstein teil des dänischen Königsreich. Ich nehme an das ich vieleicht das “Schwizer Amish” vestehe es wär ein Ausforderung diese Sprache zu hören. Gothische Schrift habe ich als Kind gelessen im Elsass danoch viele Bücher auf diese Schriftart geschrieben waren.
mit freundliche Grüssen aus meine Wahlheimat Norwegen
R. E. Kronenberger
Gorgeous language
Your language is beautiful and your choice of words is extremely informative. I’m certain that your journey to Norway was quite a change for you, and I’m so happy you decided to share with us some of the history of your kingdom.
🙂
Dutch vs. Deutsch.
Greetings Erik:
It all comes down to sloppy pronounciation.
When the Amish came to America in the mid-18th century, they spoke German (Deutsch), the language spoken in the Alpine regions where they lived. In America, the word ‘deutsch’, when spoken, turned into ‘dutch’ simply because “the English” could not discern or pronounce the diphtong ‘eu’ (try it yourself). Possibly, the English then decided that the Amish were from the Netherlands, where people speak Dutch, and left it at that, and the Amish never bothered to correct them.
Etymologically, the word ‘dutch’ is derived from ‘deutsch’, as is ‘tysk’ (the Scandinavian word for German) and ‘tedesco’ (the Italian word for German). The word ‘german’ itself derives from a transcription of Arminius, a tribal leader who fought the Romans. Traditionally, this transcription is ascribed to Martin Luther who needed a unifying, genuinely “German” figure during the Reformation.
Historically, the ‘Deutsche’ were one of numerous tribes living north of the Rhine, along with the ‘Alemani’, as used in the French word for German, and the ‘Teutoni’.
Enough for now. I really like this site, Erik. Keep up the good work.
Kommentar aus Norwegen
Ok Erik! ich spreche keinelei englisch, so muss ich mit Dir auf deutsch schreiben, in der Skandinavische Sprache, sagt man “tysk” für deutsch, das ist richtig. “Jeg snakker tysk og norsk” (Ich spreche deutsch und norwegisch) aber das alte Wort für deutsch ist “duits” ob das Martin Luthert dahinter steck für ein gemeinsame deutsche Schriftsprach zweifel ich daran, wenn Du Goethe gesagt hätest da war ich einverstanden, den da er in Sessenheim im Elsass war at er sich bestimmt das die bayern und die schleswig-holsteiner einander verstehn sollen mit ein Sprache genannt “Hoch-Deutsch” Schriflich und Mundlich! Die römer sagen das Wort “Alemann” den die hatten kriegliche berührung mit dem Stamme der Alemannen (auf dänisch und norwegisch Alle-Menn)die römer sagen “Alemania” und die franzosen “Alemand” das Wort deutsch gibbt es nicht auf lateinisch ausser “germania” so frage ich mich die Amish sprechen die alemanisch? da möchte ich gerne ein “geschmaksprobe” haben von ihre sprachschatz und wo kan man die Sprache der Amish höre? mit freundliche grüssen R. E. Kronenberger
GreyCatz, I’m glad you enjoy the site, and I do appreciate you chipping in a little more background on this post. Thank you. Upcoming on the blog, we’ll have an interview with a PA German cultural expert, which I’m really looking forward to.
R. E. Kronenberger, thank you as well, though I’m going to have to work on translating the first half of your comments! Appreciate them though whichever language they might come in 🙂
As you’ve probably guessed, I’m very interested in linguistics, so I’ll try to keep my postings as constrained as possible.
From what I’ve learned about the Amish I wouldn’t be surprised if the “sloppiness theory” actually holds water. Sloppiness plays a major role in the evolution of languages.
It’s also very interesting that the Amish insist on using an Old High German Bible. Judging from the examples available, I’d have to say that today’s PA German/Dutch isn’t really a language anymore; rather, it is a spoken blend of (still mostly) German and English words and using English syntax.
I look forward to your article with the PA German culture expert.
Dutch oder düetch ?? das ist die Frage!
Grey Catz hat auch recht da “dutch” sich auch aussprachlich Anhört wie “düetch” nehme an kling so auf englisch ? Nicht gu zu sagen aber die Neederländer sprechen “dutch” die flammen auch in belgien und aafrikans in Süd-Afrika. Dutch \ neederländisch is eine Sprache wie sie auch in Friesland (Bremen \ Aurich) sprechen ein nieder-deutsch sprachrichtung. Was die Teutoner angeht ist “tedesco” auch richtig da die römer altso lateiner schwierichkeiten haben mit der Ausprache. Die Teutonen (lateinisch: Teutones oder Teutoni, griechisch: οι Τεύτονες) waren nach römischen Quellen ein germanisches Volk der Antike, das ursprünglich im heutigen Jütland (DK)lebte. Die Teutonen wanderten um 120 v. Chr. gemeinsam mit den Kimbern aus Jütland aus und zogen bis nach Italien (siehe Kimbernkriege).
The Germanic migrations changed the course of Western history, as the invaders replaced or transformed the Roman empire. The invasion of the Kimbrian and Teutonic tribes from overpopulated, hungry Jutland (peninsular Denmark) in 120 BC involved some 100,000 people, plundering through Germany and absorbing other destitute Germanic populations. Next they followed the Danube plain south to Thrace and west to Italy, even overcoming a Roman consul’s army at Noreia (in Carinthia) in 113 BC, the Furor Teutonicus. Biometric reconstruction confirms they were a head taller then Romans. Ten years they plundered Gaul and Spain, until Roman general Marius exterminated their hordes in 101 BC.Empfhelung “Sturm über Europa” http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1008533/
Grüss Gott, R E:
Ich spreche kein deutsch, so es wird künftig auf englisch. Ich hoffe dass du es allerdings verstehen kannst.
Your posting is very interesting, and I think we agree on the etymology. My theory was that ‘deutsch’ became ‘dutch’ because the Americans (or English) heard it wrong, and the Amish, wanting to be left alone, never bothered to correct them.
I’m not 100 % sure about Martin Luther being responsible for the Arminius transcription, but I read it in a German article in Stern magazine a few years ago, and I suppose the Germans would know. But it still seems a bit shaky, so I’ll have to look into it.
What language do the Amish speak
I was born and lived most of my life in Pennsylvania. My grandparents were Mennonites. I never heard them speak any language other then English when my parents and I visited them. I spent two weeks in the summer there visting at various times over the years. My mother and her two sisters were given a choice to remain in the church or leave at about 11 years of age. They chose to leave and later on married and went out into the “modern” world. My grandmothers relatives were from Switzerland and my grandfathers from Germany. My own fathers parents were Lutheran and came from Germany,Holland and England. We had few High religious figures in the Mennonite mix I am just now getting interested in the specifics of the line. I like the responses of Erik and Grey.
Lulu
Mein versuch englisch zu übersetzen !
Grüsse Dich Grey! oder soll isch Schriwe Grüëss Desch Grey?
habe eine norwegische – englische Übersetzung die heisst www.google.no – oversetter = translator auf viele Sprachen. Es ist nicht 100% eine genaue übersetzung, aber doch eine möglischkeit zu kommuniseren mitteinander, entschuldigung für die sprachliche misverständnisen!!
What you wrote “My theory was that ‘deutsch’ becam ‘Dutch’ Because the Americans (or English) heard it wrong, and the Amish, wanting to Be left alone, never bothered two correct restriction.” It’s probably just right Grey, it can probably all agree on. So modest Amish people were and are, so they complained not of the “language misunderstanding”!
When “ditsch” “düetsch”, “duitsch” give each other. “They were certainly indifferent to them what the other meant.!
As I wrote, way Amish people had talked to a German-language neederlansk,
(Holländish as they say in Germany – Holland is actually a province of Niederland, innbygerne in the country do not like that one says Holland when it is thought that the whole country)As I shop \ buy on behalf of others, vehicle or industrial goods, agricultural products (I’m a consultant – advisor) over the internet and phone (or trips) from Norway, Germany, Switzerland and Austria, and as my mother tongue is elsassisch \ Alsatian \ alemanisch so I understand all German-speaking dialects. I hear the nuances of languages. So it would be very interesting to hear as. Audio – You Tube, Amish people talking to each other b. h at the dinner table or in any other context.
So Grey! there is an audio or Youtube which you or Erik can hear the Amish people speak in their language? Can you or Erik `Amish America give me a link?
mit viele Grüssen aus Norwegen R. E. K.
Mein versuch englisch zu übersetzen !
Grüsse Dich Grey! oder soll isch Schriwe Grüëss Desch Grey?
habe eine norwegische – englische Übersetzung die heisst www.google.no – oversetter = translator auf viele Sprachen. Es ist nicht 100% eine genaue übersetzung, aber doch eine möglischkeit zu kommuniseren mitteinander, entschuldigung für die sprachliche misverständnisen!!
What you wrote “My theory was that ‘deutsch’ becam ‘Dutch’ Because the Americans (or English) heard it wrong, and the Amish, wanting to Be left alone, never bothered two correct restriction.” It’s probably just right Grey, it can probably all agree on. So modest Amish people were and are, so they complained not of the “language misunderstanding”!
When “ditsch” “düetsch”, “duitsch” give each other. “They were certainly indifferent to them what the other meant.!
As I wrote, way Amish people had talked to a German-language neederlansk,
(Holländish as they say in Germany – Holland is actually a province of Niederland, country’s citizens,do not like that one says Holland when it is thought that the whole country)As I shop \ buy on behalf of others, vehicle or industrial goods, agricultural products (I’m a consultant – advisor) over the internet and phone (or trips) from Norway, Germany, Switzerland and Austria, and as my mother tongue is elsassisch \ Alsatian \ alemanisch so I understand all German-speaking dialects. I hear the nuances of languages. So it would be very interesting to hear as. Audio – You Tube, Amish people talking to each other b. h at the dinner table or in any other context.
So Grey! there is an audio or Youtube which you or Erik can hear the Amish people speak in their language? Can you or Erik `Amish America give me a link?
mit viele Grüssen aus Norwegen R. E. K.
Good day, R E:
If you search for “Amish language” or “Amish speaking dutch” on YouTube you will find numerous clips. However, they aren’t really good, and often very short. But, as you speak German yourself, you may find the comments to the clips interesting.
I have been looking for a lengthy one-on-one interview with an Amish person conducted in PA German/Dutch, but I haven’t been successful yet. It’s probably because the Amish, as we all know, dislike cameras and tape recorders. But I keep searching, and I’ll be sure to let you know.
Tschüss aus Dänemark.
PA deitsch videos
i have started a blog “Alles in pennsylvania deitsch”
http://penndeitsch.wordpress.com/
For the moment its mostly me speaking. I am ex Amish-Mennonite from Tampico, Illionis. My project is to record PA Deitsch from the different regions of the USA and also some of the germanic dialects here in france and germany that i can understand. I realise that PA Deitsch is a very living language because it isn’t written and the only rule is “schwetz wie du vitt”, speak as you like.
Skriver på norsk til deg!
Hei Grey !
vi kan sikkert skrive til hverandre på norsk\dansk, er ikke så “stiv” i engelsk. Har vært med min familien i Texas i nov. 2004 og bod på en ranch vest for S.A. besøkte dengang Castroville Tx, etterkommere etter de fra Elsass som utvandret i 1830 tall. De snakker ennå …om ikke mange fremdeles elsasser-tysk en del av alemannen-tysk, og som jeg har skrevet før, kommer de “Alle-mannen” “Nord-fra elven Elben” altså Schleswig – Holstein og nordover, dengang var Danmark stor og mer langs strakt en nå, der hørte med under andre byer som Flensborg = Flensburg, og Hamborg = Hamburg. Så stammen fra “Alle-mannen” var egentlig som betegnelse sier danske opprinnelige. Vis man kunne vært “flue” på veggen og hørte hvordan de snakker Amish folkene hadde det hjulpet å forstå sprog om det noe “neederlandsk” i det eller ei! Skal ta meg en prat idag pr. Tlf med en landsmann fra Elsass, Robert Scheib, han har vært i Pennsylvania hos Amish folk, skal høre med han (han snakker dialekt tysk som meg) hva han mener om sprog deres! Holder deg orientert også Erik. Kommer tilbake på han Luther senere, håper du forstå hva jeg skrev eller kan jeg oversette dette på engelsk. gleder meg den dag jeg tar meg en tur til Amish folk og stille høre på dem!! med vennlig hilsener til “vår vugge” Danmark.
Skriver på dansk til dig.
Hej R E,
Ja, lad os prøve med dansk. Og jeg kan meget bedre forstå dit norske – din Google-oversætter kan være svær at forstå ibland 🙂
Det lyder spændende med dine forbindelser i TX, det må give dig gode muligheder for at komme nærmere Amish-kulturen.
At ‘alemanen’ skulle komme fra ‘alle mænd’ lyder ikke usandsynligt; det har måske været brugt som en samlende betegnelse for alle de enkelte stammer i Nordtyskland/Jylland. Jeg har dog en teori om, at ‘alemanen’ er afledt af Aleric, en stammeleder, men jeg er ikke helt sikker. Du ved, nogle gange er den enkleste løsning den rigtige.
Hilsener fra Nordsjælland.
ennå litt mer opplysninger fra meg!
Ja hei Grey, det var koselig at vi kan snakke \ skrive på dansk\nork, jeg kan opplyse deg i samme sleng at Austin Universitet Germanisk Studien ved Prof. Hans Boas (hcb@mail.utexas.edu) som er fra Göttingen (D) har startet en lang studie over hele Texas fra 2008 og utover til dags dato, om den hva som er igjen av tysk \ dialektene i Texas, har prøvd å ta kontakt med tilsvarende institutt i Pennsylvania om Amish folkene. Kunne kartlegge vitenskapelig som i Texas de forskjellige sprog retninger,i Austin har de tysk, norsk og svensk men dansk vet jeg ikke. Så har vi vår venn i Elsass i by Obernai, Prof. Paul Adolf som har skrevet noe bøker med oversettelse elsassisk – engelsk – elsassisk, (paul.adolf@gmail.com) Han Robert Scheib som jeg skrev om skrev til meg at Amish folkene snakket elsassisk (?)han har vært der i Pennsylvania og snakket med dem, prøvde å ringe han idag men uten hell. Er meget spent å å få høre Amish folk snakket har nesten lyst å ta meg en tur over dammen !! Hilsener fra Lysefjord (sør fra Bergen) R. E. K. OBS; jeg kan ikke skrive engelsk derfor oversettelse fra www.google.no -ved oversetter ! ingen er perfekt!
Hej R E,
Jeg må lige være sikker: Du skrev tidligere, at du og din familie havde været i Texas i 2004 og besøgt Castroville. Jeg forstod på dig, at der findes Amish-folk med rødder i Elsass-regionen. Har jeg forstået dig korrekt?
Hvis du klikker på “Amish State Guide” øverst til venstre på denne side, kan du læse om de enkelte Amish-grupper i Amerika, og jeg kan ikke finde nogen Amish-bosættelser i Texas.
Varme hilsener til Lysefjord.
Castroville Tx
Ok Grey jeg skal forklare deg følgende det ikke Amish folk (de utvandret fra Europa 200 år før dette, jeg vet eller ikke om Amish folk er fra Elsass) men de som utvandret fra Elsass i begynnelse av 1835 var vanlig bønder som reiste.Da en såkalt impressario Henry Castro (portugisisk jøde) reiste rundt i den sørlige del av Elsass på landsby og “vervet” bønder (helst katolikker) – som hadde store familier 8 til 13 børn – til en bedre liv i Texas og med land de kunne dyrke. Da hver familie i Sundgau \ Elsass ( mot den sveit-siskgrense) skulle livnære seg på gården, etterhvert ble gården mindre og mindre da alle skulle arve en bitt. Så reiste de med lekteren, og pikk og pakk, opp nordover på Rhinen til Rotterdam og så tok de store seilbåten til Kanariøyene så seilte de forbi Key West til Galveston (øy) så over der Texas City ligger nå og til fots mot San Antonio Tx, da var krigen mellom Mexiko und Texas nettopp over, men alt lå i ruiner, engang fram ventet de på han Henry Castro, som kom et par måned senere, så tok Texas Ranger Kapt. John Coffee Hays kommando over settleren og følgen dem til deres bestemmelses stedt over den andre side av Medina River, hvor de fikk inndelt hver sin lot jord. De barnerike familien reiste med 7 til 13 barn og kom fram med 1 eller 2, 3 resten fikk sjømanns grav under veien. De i Castroville Tx er som alle andre amerikaner religiøs på sin måtte men de er ikke Amish folk. De snakker elsassisk eller Alsatian som jeg skrev altså alemannsk. Hørte nettopp på You Tube hvordan Amish barn uttaler dagene det er som på elsassisk \ sveitsisk tysk herlig å høre, klar har de engelsk akksent skulle bare mangle men meget godt å høre! Skal skrive til da den første gang jeg snakket med en av innbyggerne i Castroville Tx (1996)i tlf!!
Amish i TX.
Hej R E,
OK, jeg misforstod. Jeg har lige været inde på denne hjemmeside:
http://www.museeprotestant.org/Pages/Notices.php?noticeid=691&scatid=131&lev=1&Lget=DE
Den beskriver Amish-folkets tid i Elsass-regionen i 1600-tallet, og den er på tysk. Der er også billeder/malerier af Amish-bønder, og deres udseende har næsten ikke ændret sig frem til idag.
Elsass-regionen har som bekendt skiftet overherredømme mange gange, så dialekten må være meget speciel. Det sprog, Amish-folket bragte med til Amerika, må således være en blanding af schweizisk-tysk, elsass-tysk og pfälzer-tysk.
Jeg skal se nærmere på din ven Prof. Paul Adolf – det lyder meget interessant.
Elsass hvor mange skiftet de statsborgerskap?
Hei Grey!
riktig som du skrev mine forfedre fra før 1648 var de tysk (nasjonalitet dengang var mindre betydningsfull som den er idag) i løpet av 400 år måtte de skifte over natten sin statsborgerskap, gikk i seng om kvelden som tysker …og neste dag våknet de opp som …franskmenn! Jeg var den eneste i min familie som fri menneske fikk “velge” mitt statsborgerskap idag er jeg norsk, norsk-elsasser. Så vil jeg gjerne gå tilbake til 1974, min familien og jeg selv ferierte ved Vinderup\Holstebro ved Limfjord da leste jeg en avisartikkelen i Jyllandsposten av Jens Kruse som skrev (har tatt vare på avis utklipp) at elsasser i Elsass har same sprog tonklang eller tonasjon som de folkene på Bornholm, det kan nok stemme da jeg hørte danske snakke fransk trodde jeg på deres aksent at de var fra Elsass! Du kan meget rolig skrive til Paul på engelsk og hilsen han fra meg han er meget belært og glad i Etymologi som jeg selv er. Grüess Dich !
Hey, Could Someone Interpret?
This conversation looks interesting. I can pick out a word here & there & some pronouns & punctuation marks, but what on earth are you talking about?
Sorry, just looks too good to not be interested!
til Valerie
Hi Valerie!
sorry so much I forgot completely that this page was published so I wrote to Grey Catz about language and language of origin of Amish people in the Norwegian-Danish. Maybe he Grey can explain to you and Erik what we talked \ wrote about. (and the rest of America) he is better in English than I am, I use here a translation program from Norwegian to English and vice versa.
Greetings to you Valerie from the Norwegian fjords
Interpretation, sort of...
Greetings, Valerie:
My apologies. I know it’s a bit impolite using foreign languages in an English forum, so here’s the gist of our discussion:
I am Danish and my friend Kronenberger is Norwegian, and we’re both very interested in linguistics and cultural history. Kronenberger, being originally from the Elsass region between France and Germany, prefers to write in German and he has some very interesting points about the origins of PA German/Dutch.
At this point, we’ve agreed that the Amish brought with them a variant of German from the Elsass region that is an amalgam of Swiss-German, Elsass-German, and Alemanic-German.
I just visited a site devoted to Alsacien/Elsass-German, and it’s strikingly similar to PA German.
So, there you are 🙂
Kan du gi noe forklaring til Valerie? Grey ?
Hei Grey!
jeg glemte meg helt her at vi var “offentlig” , og skriver på norsk til deg, og hun “tilskuer” Valerie forsto ingenting eller meget liten om dette vi skrev til hverandre, kan du være så elskverdig og forklare henne og Erik og kanskje resten av America hva vi snakket om du er flink i engelsk min pinguin-engelsk er ikke noe å lese. Det er prisverdig at menneske er glad i sprog jeg glede meg å høre Amish folk snakke jeg kommer å “slurpe” inn i meg hver eneste ord. Husker da jeg snakket med han i Castroville Tx, for første gang elsassisk, i tlf. det gikk kald ned over rygge på meg da jeg hørt orden i røret…akkurat som jeg skule tilbake…lang tilbake til 1840 !! Elsasser dialekt med sveitsisk aksent jeg var overveltet, stor stor glede å høre hvordan de snakket anno dengang…!
No Apology Necessary
GreyCatz & R.E.,
Carry on gentlemen, just thought it was fascinating myself that you two found a common interest! It is interesting it happened via this website, so the language is there for us to witness & learn more about the history of PA Dutch. Danke! Where I live in Ohio, I have heard so many different dialects in the Amish-some have almost a UK sound, some a southern twang almost, some am just PLAIN not sure, but it is always enjoyable to be exposed to the variety.
Good morning, Valerie:
I agree, to find a fellow linguist on this particular site is a bit curious. As for the spoken variants that you hear in Ohio, it may reflect the variation originally found in Elsass in 17th-century Europe.
One of the things I’ve learnt from this site is just how much Amish communities can vary, even within the same county. As you know, these differences are often very subtle, e.g. the size of the hat brim or dialectal variation.
Language History of Amish
GreyCatz, & R.E.
It was a treat to witness your exchange and learn more of the history. It’s curious to me what brought you both to this site-interest for the Amish culture has exploded in last couple of decades,now worldwide interest, thanks to the internet. I listen to online ministry, which has alot of former Amish preaching, in Pennsylvania. They all sound like they are from England. Having studied the history of Mennonites & Amish in Europe, it was intersting to see how widespread they were. Personally, I appreciate their desire to maintain their language.
Being originally from Southern California not far from border of Mexico, it is similar in that if you learn Spanish to speak with the Mexican population-it is not the same-one could communicate but there is a difference.
What a pleasure to hear what you two shared! Blessings to you both.
Language & History of the Amish.
Good afternoon, Valerie:
I’ve long been interested in European cultural history, including languages and religion.
The history of the Anabaptists, such as Amish and Mennonites, in Europe is one of hard toil and persecution, first from Catholics following the Reformation then from ‘mainstream’ Prostestants. This included confiscation of property, torture, and getting burnt at the stake. One site I visited even had an engraving showing an Anabaptist woman being dragged to pyre.
This went on for almost 150 years until the ‘Amische’ got the chance to emigrate to America in the mid-17th century.
You then realize there’s a reason why the Amish have always been wary of ‘outsiders’, even to this day.
A few words about Spanish: In Europe, students learn Castillian, a kind of ‘High Spanish’, which the Spanish understand but rarely use themselves, preferring all kinds of local dialects, e.g. Catalán and Andaluz. Having studied Spanish myself at college, I’m frustrated that they understand me while I struggle to understand them!
Grey and I was fascinated by language and history!
Hi Valerie, Grey, and Erik, the characters for me, the language of Amish people aroused my interest first and last. It gave me the impression that through their “conservative” lifestyle has managed to preserve its language of authenticity, an island of alemannsk in a sea of English! Do not mind the English language on the contrary! So I got experience in Texas where, as they have managed to maintain a “linguistic chaperones”, not in the human scale as in the Amish! In Castroville, Tx, had not only in English to deal with but also Spanish, there lives a large number of Mexican there. Can something as familiar Pennsylvania recommend where you should go to to hit the Amish people without being intrusive, take the time and talk with them, so clear without a microphone and camera, you must respect it, when they do not like it! I speak I speak fluent and write Alsatian \ elsasssik \ alemannsk dialect, so it should not be difficult to communicate with them. Valerie when you came into “our conversation” between Grey and myself, (in Danish-Norwegian) was that we are “caught to grab candy into us!” Good Valerie, we forgot ourselves and the world around!
"Hitting the Amish".
Hej R E,
Du bliver nok nødt til at forklare præcis, hvad du mener med “hit the Amish” – det lyder lidt brutalt på engelsk, og jeg er sikker på, at du mener noget andet 🙂
Jeg var inde på Prof. Paul Adolfs hjemmeside, og den var meget spændende. Der var mange gode eksempler, og han har tydeligvis arbejdet med emnet i mange år. Jeg overvejer seriøst at købe hans bøger.
Mente ikke å skremme!
Hei Grey takk skal du ha for opplysninger!
ja jeg skrev på norsk og så…kom den brutale ut på engelsk! naturligvis var det ikke meningen å skjokkere, også riktig som du og skrev, det er et møtte med dem jeg mente, samtale over kjøkken bord til morgen mat, jeg vet ikke om de drikker vin eller en bayer, jeg vet eller ikke om de spiser heste kjøtt, det var texaner og da jeg spurte dem, de var helt forskrekket da jeg spurte om jeg kunne kjøpe indre filet av hest! Men det hadde vært interessant å se og hør og smake på maten, jeg så de baket kringler kanskje de samme som i Elsass \ Sveits eller Tyskland med grov salt på? Paul kan du snakke med og vis du trenger Tlf. nr. kan du få denne, forresten jeg har skrevet og sendt det ned til han håper han er hjemme. Han var den øverste leder fra alle folkehøyskoler i Elsass.
to meet the Amish!
Sorry if there is misunderstanding the translation from Norwegian to English! Did the meeting Amish folks and listen when they talk alemannsk and write me how and what the words they use everyday. See the cook their books! Are there any “roots” back to the old country? Is there something written in Gothic, there is no problem I read it as a child, it is habit case.
Hej R E,
Det er ‘greit’. Jeg ville bare være helt sikker. Der findes desværre folk, som kan blive vrede over uskyldige misforståelser.
Hvis du vil vide mere om mad og drikke i Amish-kulturen, kan du f.eks. klikke rundt på denne hjemmeside. Erik har mange gode artikler om Amish-køkken, og der er mange interessante kommentarer fra folk, som ved en masse.
Nogle Amish-samfund tillader alkohol, andre ikke. Jeg tror ikke, at de spiser hestekød – jeg har i hvert fald ikke set det beskrevet nogen steder.
Er det en tradition i din familie at spise hestekød? Der er ikke mange, der gør det mere i Skandinavien, og jeg har kun smagt det 1 gang i min barndom.
Speaking Amish
No one answered the question that Bill asked way back at the beginning of all these comments.
Is there a book that people can buy who are interested in learning the Penn Deutsch language?
I’d be interested in learning too. Julie
Amish har mange hester men spiser de kjøttet?
Grey ! Nå sover amerikaneren …nå kan vi skrive på dansk – norsk!! Bare spøker med deg…!Jeg så noe film snutter på You Tube om Amish og så at de hadde mengde av hester. For å si det som det er ja, i Elsass spiser vi (ikke alle menneker!)heste kjøtt, hadde til og med egen slakteri-butikker med hestekjøtt, husk at hesten få den beste fôr, og kjøtt fra hest er rein protein, ingen bein, fett eller sener, kjøtt er lite grand mørkere i farge en ku kjøtt og en gram søtlig, stekes i sterk varme etter å ha saltet og pepret biffen, men husk det er ikke å anbefale alt for ofte for små barn (den er afrodiserende)dette er en “het” kjøtt type! Men godt er det…og mør som smør!!! Skal lese hva Erik skriver om dette med mat og drikke.
Hestekød.
Hej R E,
Ha ha, ja nu sover de i Amerika…
Jeg kan udmærket forstå, at folk spiser hestekød, og din forklaring lyder fornuftig. Jeg tror, at folk mange steder er gået væk fra hestekød, fordi hesten er blevet et kæledyr, ligesom hunde og katte. Men jeg ved, at folk i Elsass er berømte for deres køkken og vine, f.eks. Gewürtztraminer og Riesling.
Amish-folket har typisk et meget enkelt køkken, solidt og næringfyldt – her er ikke nogen helsetrends. Og hesten er jo stadig et højt skattet brugsdyr hos Amish-folket, både i marken og foran deres ‘buggies’.
Hey Julie Turner!
would Amish people speak, which I presume alemannsk perhaps Alsatian \ elsassisch then je recommend a dictionary written by an English professor Paul Adolf, from city Obernai in Alsace, Alsatian-English-Alsatian with word explanation and how many them (phonetic) here is his E-Mail: paul.adolf @ gmail.com to Julie Turner can communicate with him and hear about what is right or not!
I speak as a printer Alsatian so I do not need it, but I heard an audio of the children from the Amish people on You Tube as spite against week days, and it was alemannsk no doubt, numerous reading of the days (ie the words) sounds like the Swiss-German! But I need a longer audio conversation between Amish people to stadt attach Alsatian \ alemmansk or not (no English in between)
This is a FANTASTIC post for me; as I have been looking for an Alsatian – English dictionary for some time. Thank you so much for posting this.
There was earlier mention of Castroville, Texas. That is in Medina County and is where my mother’s family settled when they came from the Alsace in the 1840’s. They kept the dialect alive until World War I, after which they refused to teach it to any of their children as “German” and “Germany” were bad words in the U.S. at the time. This means that my mother never really learned the language, though her parents would speak it when they didn’t want the children to know what they were talking about! So she did eventually learn a little of the language, though never was actually able to speak it.
When I was child and we would go to family reunions in La Coste and nearby Castroville I would hear the old timers speaking Alsatian and didn’t have a clue what they were talking about. It was interesting to hear though. On visits to elderly relatives I would also hear them speak it in their homes, but never heard it spoken in public save the family reunions.
Several years ago while visiting the very small Amish settlement in Bee County, TX. near Beeville, I overheard several of the men speaking amongst themselves. The language sounded like what I remember hearing my mother’s family speak, so I asked what they were speaking. They told me it was called “Swabish” or “Swabian” and said they refer to it as “Swiss”. When I searched for it on the internet I learned it was a closely related language to Alsatian. Sounds like your theory is correct, at least best I can understand what you are saying. It does appear that some of the Amish are speaking a form of Alemannic German. Never heard Pennsylvania Dutch spoken so I couldn’t say how it sounds compared to the Alsatian I heard as a youth.
Amazing the things you can find on Amish America! Thanks again for the info on the dictionary.
Stephen Rogers
aka OldKat
Greetings, OldKat:
It would seem that you and Kronenberger have a lot to share. A word of caution, though: Kronenberger uses a Google translation program which sometimes produces, shall we say, odd results, but he really has a lot to offer.
If you’d like some examples of Prof. Paul Adolf’s dictionary, go to:
http://universitepopulaire.dobernai.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Apparently, Kronenberger is a personal friend of Prof. Adolf’s.
Prof. Paul Adolf’s dictionary
Thank you for the information GreyCatz, this appears to be EXACTLY what I have been looking to find. I will follow up with him tonight.
Hello GreyCatz
You are correct; Mr. Kronenberger and I could have a whole lot in common. I just read through (what I could) of the earlier thread and saw that he is an agricultural equipment consultant. I have an agricultural background, too. I just sold all of my cattle because of the extreme drought that we have been having, but will never give up on agriculture.
Would you please give me a brief summary of what was said earlier about Castroville, Tx? I couldn’t follow the conversation, but did notice a reference to Texas Ranger Capt. John Coffee Hays, a fascinating character from early Texas history.
BTW: My fraternal grandmother was a De Nay or De Naiy from Castroville, her family arriving in one of Henri Castro’s immigrations. Both of my maternal grandparents were from La Coste, just down the road from Castroville. Family names include Salzman or Salzmann, Etter, Biedeger, Tschirhart, Busch, Beipert & other similar. All came over with Henri Castro.
Elssaser vin type
Grey ! det finnes kun 7 sorte hvitvin typer i Elsass ; Sylvaber, Riesling, Gewürztraminer, Muskat, Weissklevner (Pinot blank), Grauklevner (Pinot gris), Spätburgunder (Pinot noir) mens Edelwicker er en blandings druer altså en blandingsvin. En type hvitvin Traminer finnes og. Rød druer eller rødvin er ikke den mest fremtredende i Elsass, bare i region Oxtrott. Men så har California (Zinfandel-Fetzer) kommet med en Gewürztraminer skulle gjerne smake på dem, Fetzer-Zinfandel synes etter min smak har den beste rødvin, ikke alle årgang er de besten, men vin smaker som (dansk kirsebær) druerankene kommer fra nord Italien. I min landsby (utenfor)i Elsass dyrket de druer, tobakk, humle (til øl) maïs, hvete, poteter, havre, spør meg hva de Amish dyrker hos dem.
Takk så meget Grey!
Hei Grey !
meget bra svart for meg, setter pris på dette at du forklarer på engelsk at min google.no er lang fra fullkommen. Jeg har dessverre ikke lært engelsk da jeg gikk på skole som 7 årig eller ikke høy tysk, snakket bare min morsmål ; elsasssik til “froske spiser” gikk amok og tvang på oss deres sprog! Derfor er jeg glad å kunne nytte en oversetter men må nok passe at det “klaffer” med ord eller setningene. En rettelse ; den hvitvin heter Sylvaner ikke Sylvaber!Har nettopp snakket med Paul i tlf. har snakket om deg og han Roger Stephen jeg sa at dere fikk E-Mail hans, han nevnte en CD med engelsk-elsassisk-engelsk må høre lit mer om dette skal orientere deg. Hilsen fra Lysefjord R. E.
Hej R E,
Jeg håber, at du og OldKat kan udveksle oplysninger. Han har åbenbart ledt efter Prof. Adolfs ordbog meget længe, og nu har du hjulpet ham.
Jeg sidder netop og drikker hvidvin fra Elsass (jeg kan lide Riesling) og sender varme tanker til Lysefjord.
Din fortjeneste i stor grad Grey takker så meget!!
Hei Grey !
ikke bare jeg har hjulpet nei ! Du har vært med på dette og, vis vi ikke hadde skrevet på dansk-norsk (som broderfolk) vil folk i Amerika som går på Amish sin sider… (kanskje ble han varslet av andre?)hadde han aldri ha funnet ut av dette. Vet du hva Grey! når vi reiser sør over eller nord over Jylland, stopper vi alltid i Himmerland \ Skørping \ Syltrup sør fra Aalborg, der levde Kimber-folkene som utvandret i år 300 etter vår tidsregning, pga. Liten istid, hungersnød og overbefolkning (høres det kjent ut?) og reiste sør over (kanskje sjøveien) til Tyskland. De hadde med seg et annet stammen Teutoner, i Himmerland som sagt stopper vi og holder alltid en “liten andakt” (jeg er ikke religiøs)over dem. Danmark er for meg den virkelig vuggen fra Midt-Europa. Tenk på Angeln(-Sakse)som kom fra Schleswig-Holstein (DK dengang), Kimber, Teutone, Alle-Mannen o.g.s…. Godt å kunne hjelpe andre ikke sant ! Skål til deg Riesling er herlig …vel å merke kjølig!! Hilsen R. E. K.
Thanks
Thank you R.E Krononburger for your help
In Christian love Julie
To Julie Turner
Hi ! Julie Turner!
just nice that we could help you (and maybe other people?) you can certainly talk to my friend in Alsace Prof. Paul Adolf he is \ was English professor and talks like me, elsasssisk too.
Have a beautiful day where you live, with greetings from the Norwegian fjords.
R. E. Kronenberger
E-Mail:mrrek2010@gmail.com
Thank you R.E./GreyCatz
This has been so interesting. My sister in California is an ESL teacher herself in universities & meets people from around the world to learn English.
To comment on what GreyCatz said re History of Anabaptists. A book I read which goes in great detail of the spread of Anabaptism in Europe in it’s beginnings is called Mennonites in Europe by John Horsch, 1942. It took 30 years to compile. I am not sure if any other book besides the Bible, has affected my heart so. I wept at the persecution of the Anabaptists, & to find out their hunts & deaths were ordered by even the Protestants leading the Reformation, well, I have not been the same-when I hear some of their names “exhalted” as reformers, I get a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. May the righteous roots of the Anabaptists thrive! I highly recommend this book & it does help you conclude the many language dialects of the Amish & Mennonites. It goes into brief history of Amish splitting from Mennonites-very, very good book.
Vad har hänt med världen? Nu går jag in på Amish America och hittar en massa skrivet på skandinaviska språk? Nu är jag förvirrad…
Tower of Babel (?)
Greetings, Elin:
I assume you understand English, so here’s a quick summary: Yes, as my friend Kronenberger wrote, we’ve been using Danish and Norwegian, but it all comes down to a shared interest linguistics and history.
We are both very interested in the peculiar variant of German spoken by the Amish (referred to as PA German/Dutch), and we’ve established that it closely resembles a German dialect called Elsass-German spoken in Alsace/Elsass.
We try to keep it in English, of course, but sometimes we just “forget ourselves” 🙂 If you have an interest in PA German or Elsass-German, you might consider using the link provided in an earlier posting. Someone has actually written an English-to-Elsass-German dictionary.
Til deg Elin en kort kommentar!
Hei Elin!
Forklaring er enkelt, vis du går tilbake og begynner å lese hva vi skrev både Gey Catz og jeg selv (han er fra Danmark og jeg fra Norge men er opprinnelig fra Elsass der sikkert en del Amish folk har sin morsmål og en del kommer fra) og Grey elsker etymologi og det gjør jeg og, nysgjerrig på språk og kulturhistorie begge to…og så jeg som ikke kan skrive engelsk kun tysk og norsk, måtte “bruke” google.no og gå inn på “oversetter2 norsk-engelsk men som Grey skrev “ikke den beste oversettelse” det kan gi mange komiske assosiasjoner, dessverre men jeg prøver min beste. Jeg anbefalte leksikon fra en venn av meg Prof. i engelsk, Paul Adolf, som har skrevet elsassisk-engelsk-elsassisk. Erdu i Sverige Elin?? ha en god dag hilsener fra Norges vestkysten, R. E. K.
Hei Elin!
Forklaring er enkelt, vis du går tilbake og begynner å lese hva vi skrev både Grey Catz og jeg selv (han er fra Danmark og jeg fra Norge men er opprinnelig fra Elsass der sikkert en del Amish folk har sin morsmål og en del kommer fra) og Grey elsker etymologi og det gjør jeg og, nysgjerrig på språk og kulturhistorie begge to…og så jeg som ikke kan skrive engelsk kun tysk og norsk, måtte “bruke” google.no og gå inn på “oversetter” norsk-engelsk men som Grey skrev “ikke den beste oversettelse” det kan gi mange komiske assosiasjoner, dessverre men jeg prøver min beste. Jeg anbefalte leksikon fra en venn av meg Prof. i engelsk, Paul Adolf, som har skrevet elsassisk-engelsk-elsassisk. Er du i Sverige Elin?? ha en god dag hilsener fra Norges vestkysten, R. E. K.
Game of Crokinole term
Hi, I stumbled upon this forum and was wondering if anyone could answer a question that has stumped the Crokinole community in Ontario, Canada.
The game of crokinole is widely played among the Amish/Mennonite’s as well as increasing in the general population. I myself am of Amish Mennonite decent, with ancestors originating in Alsace.
In Crokinole, if you flick your disc into the centre hole, you are awarded 20 points. The Mennonites refer to this as a “doogey” (spelling mine), but no one seems to know what the word means. Most people seem to assume it is a German word, but no one can find any such word in German, so I have wondered if it is peculiar to the Pennsylvania Dutch or similar dialect, although my parents who spoke it can not put a translation to it other than it means a “20” in the game of crokinole. It is obviously not the German word for 20 however.
Does anyone have any explanation?
Dale
Perhaps it’s a Latin root. The “Doo” part of it (Du/deu)likely references “2,” or “double.” The “gey” part is probably another old root – it brings to mind “Bogey” in golf. The fact is, I don’t know what I’m talking about, but it’s plausible, no?
If no one has a better idea and you don’t like my answer, I’ll offer my first thought. Doogey is a household word here… It means “good dog!”
Doogey
Lattice,
I found your “good dog” theory interesting.
Yes, the term is used when sinking your disc (also known as button) in the 20 hole. It would be used in phrases such as “you got a doogie”, or “how many doogies did you get?”
You say that “Doogey is a household word here…”, where is here, and what language is it from?
Thanks to all who have offered suggestions.
Dale
Dale, I’m afraid my theory is neither historical nor scientific. In the Southeast U.S., some people do name their dogs “Doogie,” but at my house it’s just a term of endearment for a well-loved terrier. Imagine, if you will, that silly voice that silly pet owners use when talking to their canines, saying, “Oh, you’re such a good little doogie!”
Well, there you have it. Officially a dead end. Good luck, and sorry for the wild goose chase!
Crokinole - details.
Greetings, Dale:
I forgot to ask you this: Do Mennonites use ‘doogey’
a) to describe the board game in its entirety, or
b) as an isolated outburst when landing a disc to earn 20 points?
If it’s a), I’ll stand by my posting below. If it’s b), then Lattice might be on to something with the ‘good dog!’ theory.
If I can chime in, will just say, I am enjoying this Scandinavian Amish forum that has unexpectedly broken out here, even if I can’t understand 100% of it 🙂 Great to see
Hello, Erik:
I’d like to submit a request to you on behalf of my friend Kronenberger. He has come across a text written in Elsass-German and would like to see if Amish people can understand this dialect. The theory is that PA German/Dutch is similar, if not identical, to Elsass-German.
If at some point you could find time in your packed schedule to show this text to an Amish person and relay his/her reaction, it would mean a lot to Kronenberger and myself.
I’ll await your reply before entering the text. It is written by a professor in Elsass, who is also a personal friend of Kronenberger’s.
Some Read This Website
GreyCatz, Erik, R.E.
2 current posters on this site were Amish into their 40’s and could probably accomodate this request-will let them know so they can read & see if that is the case-
I saw one of the comments above was regarding wine? LOL
Hi GreyCatz, sounds very interesting, if you want to share the text here, that is perfectly fine.
As Valerie says it is possible that a reader of Amish or former Amish background might be able to have a look and share what they think. At the least I could try to get it to someone myself. Looking forward to hearing back.
Crokinole.
I just looked up the word ‘Crokinole’ on Wikipedia, and this is what I found:
The name “Crokinole” derives from croquignole, a French word today designating:
(1) in France, a kind of “cookie” (or “biscuit” in British English),similar to a biscotto;
(2) in Quebec, a pastry somewhat similar to a doughnut (except for the shape. [I’ve copied this from Wikipedia].
Judging from pictures on Google of Crokinole boards and pieces, my guess is that ‘doogey’, as referred to by Dale Wagler, is a corruption of ‘doughnut’. Either in reference to the circular board itself or to the small, cookie-like pieces used.
Then again, people sometimes just “say the darndest things”, and it could be something completely different.
Jag jag bor i Sverige och jag har följt denna blogg under en längre tid eftersom jag är intresserad av amish och andra liknande grupper. Jag har nog alltid trott att jag är den enda skandinaven här så förvåningen är stor när engelskan bryts av helt andra språk. Jag tycker Pennsylvania Dutch är intressant men i första hand är jag mer intresserad av andra aspekter av livet hos amishfolket.
Välkommen.
Hej Elin,
Som dansk tycker jag att det är trevligt att få med Sverige på denne sajt. Vi har redan en norrman (Kronenberger), och med tiden kanske vi får se finnska og isländska 🙂
Som du nog har upptäckt finns det hur mycket information som helst rörande Amish, Mennoniter och andra anabaptister på denna hemsida. Dessutom finns det värdefull information “gömd” i kommentarerna från alla bloggarna, t.ex. länkar.
Jag hoppas att du kan skriva ett någorlunda läsbart engelska; de övriga bloggarna är mycket tillmötesgående, men har svårt för skandinaviska.
Lycka till.
Första meningen ska vara: Ja, jag.. och inget annat
Ta det med ro Elin i denne verden er alt mulig!
Hei Ein, at jeg skrev på norsk og Grey Catz på dansk på denne engelsk side gjør vel da ingenting vi lever ennå i en fri verden hvor en kan skrive, akkrurat som en ønsker, du gjør det jo og, på svensk! Språk kan oversettes ingen problem vel! Men i utgangspunkt når du allrede nevner Amish folkene snakket de ikke engelsk de eller, tvert om! Men alemannsk som er mitt morsmål! Gir deg her med, en liten språklig smaksprøve : Liewes Maïdel jetz Schriwe isch uff elsassisch un wen Dü willsch, kannsch Dü das wie isch g`Schriwe hab ewersettsen uff schwedisch.
Det var så Amisch folk snakket. Da jeg ikke berhersker engelsk i skriftform, skrev jeg først på tysk og så på norsk da Grey Catz er dansk og det lettere for han med dansk-norsk. Det vekket i allfall nyskjerighet på denne forum om hva vi skrev. Ha en blendet dag Elin…un nix feer ungüets!
To Lattice & Dale Wagler !!
Hello Lattice & Dale Wagle,
the people at the time, 15-1600 who traveled from Alsace \ Elsass to north Amrika, could largely not write \ read and spoke only elsasssich \ Alsatian \ alemannsk, it must have had very few who could French on the time, perhaps only the rich, and they do not need to travel. Travel was a big affair at this time when the distance was so great, the roads and transport mites absolutely were primitive and it is located between Alsace \ Elsass and France a cross a mountain, a natural boundary, range from south to north: Vosges (Vosges Fri) and the original name; Wassgau. But you can ask the English Prof Paul Adolf he can perfect French, and about what you have on the heart. E-Mail: paul.adolf @ gmail.com. Dale Wagle show your parents come from Alsace\ Elsass so can \ could Alsatian \ elsassisch like me, Paul has published books of translation between the Alsatian-English-Alsatian. Writing can be the Alsatian but there is no direct rule to go by. Now, holding Alsace language research all together to the dialects of Alsace \ Elsass from south to north in a written language. Led by Dr. Prof. Edgar Zeidler and Daniella Crevenat-Werner. http://www.alsa-immer.eu/Orthal.pdf Dr Prof. E. Zeidler’s E-Mail: edgarzeidler@yahoo.fr You can certainly write to him and ask him!
Har fått svar fra Paul i Elsass!
Hei Grey ! jeg har fått noen forklaringer fra Paul i Obernai \Owerna i Elsass om Amish folkene, han skrev til meg på elsassisk jeg kan sette inn her, vi du ønsker det, jeg kan oversette det på norsk. Og så vis du ønsker det kan du oversette dette på engelsk…at også Elin i Sverige kan få det med seg.
Meget intreessant kapitel hva språk \ og religion angår og den generelle kulturhistorien.
Prof. Paul.
Hej R E,
Meget, meget spændende. Hvis det ikke fylder alt for meget, må du meget gerne sætte det ind i en post. Men jeg bestemmer jo ikke over denne hjemmeside – det gør Erik! 🙂
Jeg fik fat i dette link fra Lance i en anden blog (“So you want to join the Amish?”):
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Pennsylvania+German+dialect%22
Det er en English-PA German-English ordbog, som du sikkert også vil finde interessant.
To Grey Catz
Liewer R. E.
Du isch e bissel ebbs iwwer die Amish. Güeter Empfàng Griess vum P. un Malou
A/ Die Sekt « Amish » wo in d’r Schwitz existiert het zitter d’r Luthrische Reform ,erschint im Elsàss ands 18te Johrhundert. Sie sinn die Wiedertäufer (dann sie erkanne d’Kindtaif nitt àn). Schun ànne 1529 mit der Ankunft vun de Tirike in Wien ware se verjoejt un verfoligt. Empfànge in Struussburi, ware se geduldt awwer ihri Predjerei g’fällt nitt im Louis XIV : nu ware viel verhàft zum Beispiel in Riquewihr. Wann d’r Napoleon d’r Militärdienscht insetzt, gehn d’meischte vun ‘ne uf Amerikà.
Nuch 1648 lockt se d’r frànzisch Stààt in unser Lànd un verspricht ne dàss sie ken Stiire brüche bezàhle un gibt in denne Schwitzer Anabaptiste viel Faldsticker umesunscht.Viel instàlliere sich in Ohnenheim un Marienkirich mit’em Jakob Amann. 1693 hànn sich die Amish getrannt vun de Mennonite in Mariekirich (Elsàss).
Dutch will heisse hollandisch .
B/àwwer ‘s Pennsylvànian Dutch vu die Amish rede isch verwàndt mit Pfälzisch, Elsässisch und Schwäbisch au Schwitzerdütsch; es isch amerikànisierts Alemànnisch (wie ziemlich ‘s Elsassisch in Castroville)
Mehr Einzelheite findsch uf’em Net :
Dü kànn àlli Einzelheite finde uf’em Web: Anabaptisten oder die Amish,
Fer d’Spruuch : Pennsylvanian German : deutsche Mundarten in den USA.
Mange tak, R E!
Hej R E,
Jeg har tilladt mig at kopiere teksten over på min computer. Det er utroligt spændende at læse rent sprogligt. Der er tydeligt mange forskellige dialekter i spil.
I PA Dutch har vi altså ‘deutsch’ fra Pfalz, Elsass, Schwaben og Schweiz. Det er jo som at følge amish-folkets vandring fra Schweiz hele vejen til Amerika.
Endnu en gang, mange tak.
GreyCatz
I further replied today to your earlier reply to me, but it is further back up the thread.
Thanks,
OldKat
Henri Castro and Capt. Hays.
Hello, OldKat:
Kronenberger originally hails from Alsace/Elsass, a region between France and Germany that has changed “nationality” countless times over the past 500 years. At some point, he and his family moved to Norway, which explains why he prefers to write in Norwegian or Alemannic.
According to Kronenberger, around 1835 a theatre agent called Henri Castro toured the Elsass region to persuade farmers with large families to emigrate with him to Texas where prospects were better.
They landed in Galveston and found most of the area destroyed because of the war between Texas and Mexico. At this point, Texas Ranger Captain John Coffee Hays stepped in and led the settlers across the Medina river where each family was given a piece of land. Having left Europe with as many as 13 children in some families, many of the settlers began life in Texas with only two or three children – the rest having succumbed to the strains of the voyage.
As Kronenberger points out, these people were not Amish, but coming from Elsass they probably shared the same language. In 2004, he went to Texas and visited Castroville and found enough similarities to make him consider visiting Pennsylvania to explore the language further.
I hope you’ve gotten a better idea of our discussion, and any time you’d like further ‘translation’, just let me know.
Hmmm… I think my computer is sick. Half of the posts on this thread are… well, quite frankly… unintelligible! No worries – the IT guy is on speed dial 🙂
Tower of Babel 2.0
Hello Lattice,
I grant you that some of the postings appear to be gibberish, but even though we try to keep it in English, we sometimes get carried away.
By the last count, the languages you’ll find here are:
Englishthe vast majority, thankfully 🙂
German
Danish
Norwegian
Alemannic
Alsacien
PA German and
Swedish
Liewes Maïdel jetz Schriwe isch uff elsassisch un wen Dü willsch, kannsch Dü das wie isch g`Schriwe hab ewersettsen uff schwedisch.
Kära flicka nu skriver jag på alsachsiska? och om du vill kan du översätta vad jag skrivit till svenska. (Är det en korrekt översättning?)
Jag har läst lite tyska i skolan (4 år) och utifrån det gissar jag fram detta.
Meget bra Elin !!
BRAVO !!!! Elin du er flink! helt topp, riktig oversatt og så enkelt er det…når en kan det, så DU kan nå skrive til Amish folk og snakke elsassisk med dem, du så jo hva Prof. Paul Adolf skrev til meg, Grey har lagret det på Computer sin. Du kan rolig skrive til Paul han er meget belest og snakker både engelsk, tysk (elsassisch) og fransk. hans E-Mail adresse kan du finde lenger oppe. Jeg meget fornøyd med oversettelse.
Til OldKat
Ok OldKat
You will get my E-Mail Address: mrrek2010@gmail.com.
we can write on, we can not continue to disturb the other Amish America participant, so that their Computer is “sick” or collapses.
There are many who can get the language shock for less than this.
In Castroville Tx, I met the family name; Tschirhart, Jungman, Haby, Haas, Keller, etc. ….! It is for me a pure personal linguistic interest (perhaps food culture too!) Who pulled me over to Texas.
Yes REK … I will write to you at your email address. I think Lattice was making a little joke about the “sick” computer, so continue as you wish with the interesting posts. No one on Amish America would think anything of it regardless which language the posts are written in. Though if I could figure out which post was written in what language I might attempt the translation thing to see what was being discussed!
Of the the four surnames you mentioned meeting in Castroville besides Tschirhart, two are in my mothers family tree. She had Jungman relatives … though distantly related. She also had first cousins named Keller. Small world is it not?
When you were in Castroville you were no more that 100 miles, probably even less from the Amish in Bee County. They would be a good test of your language theory. If you ever come to Texas again I will be happy to introduce you to them.
Will write to you tomorrow …
Good night,
OldKat
Til deg Grey Catz !
Takk så meget for din forsvarstale for meg tusen takk! Trodde ikke det skulle bli en sånn oppstyr! Kan du kanskje være så snill og spør han Erik om han kan kopier dette vi skrev på elsassisk både Paul og jeg og levere dette til Amish folk som fremdeles snakker dialekten og høre med dem om de forstår hva vi har skrevet på elsassisch ? Håper å få en tilbakemelding av ham!(ikke den norske det forstår de sikkert ikke)
Rettelse; min kone er opprinnelig norsk fra Bergen men jeg født elsasaer og få si det som folk på Jylland pleier å si: ” Er du stolt å være fra Jylland ?” – “Nei svarer de…bare takknemlig…!” Jeg sier det samme “takknemlig å være fra Elsass”
Ikke stolt... bare taknemmelig.
Hej R E,
Ja, jeg skal spørge Erik vedrørende Pauls tekst.
Du skal ikke være bekymret eller ked af det – du har megen viden og gode indsigter, som hjælper folk, f.eks. OldKat. Vi skal bare sørge for at ‘oversætte’ det, så de forstår.
De jyder har altid været ret specielle, men meget gemytlige og venlige.
Repeating my other comment
Just in case it was missed above, to GreyCatz & R.E./Erik,
At least 2 current posters were Amish well into their 40’s & would be able to answer that for you, most likely, hopefully soon but both are very busy momentarily. Maybe there’s others who read the website too that could answer that.
R.E., I believe it was good ol’ American humor commenting on this thread, am sure no offense meant, we have options to not read particular topics if we’re not interested.
Also, I said above, was one of your comments regarding wine? Think I recongized that much, anyways, LOL
Wine? Oh, yes please!
Hello, Valerie:
Yes, we talked about the delightful Alsace-kitchen, including the wonderful, but often underrated, wines they have in the region.
Imagine the best of French high-cuisine combined with the rural charm of German staples such as sauerkraut or gefüllte schweinemagen, and with that a chilled Gewürtztraminer.
GreyCatz & R.E.
Well GreyCatz, you said “imagine” and that is what I will have to do, it probably won’t be “reality” in my lifetime, LOL-
Regarding finding an Amish person for you & R.E. to be able to read & see if they can read the post you wanted to ‘test’:
the 2 former Amish I had in mind, have been tied up in the people business, meaning their various ministries & caring for souls has prevented them from answering your question, but hopefully soon!
People to them are priorities, over pleasures or maybe, serving people, is their pleasure part of their Amish 40+ years-I’m curious myself at what you seek to find out.