Rich Stevick on Growing Up Amish – Parts 1 & 2
Today we have Part 1 of an interview with Messiah College professor emeritus of psychology Richard Stevick on his Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years.
Win 1 of 3 copies of Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years
Ask Rich a question in the comments below, and you’ll automatically get a chance to win one of three copies of Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years.
This is the second edition of Growing Up Amish (first published in 2007 and originally subtitled “The Teenage Years”–Rich explains the change below).
This updated edition covers new information including the effects of social media, smartphones, and the potential changes to Amish society due to these technologies. Other areas include “work and leisure, rites of passage, the rise of supervised youth groups, courtship rituals, weddings, and the remarkable Amish retention rate.”
You’ll be able to enter the giveaway contest the usual way as well–by leaving a comment on Part 2 of this interview. But if you have a question for Rich about Amish youth or other Amish issues, here’s your chance to possibly get an answer–and get an extra chance to win the book.
We’ll feature some of your questions in Part 2 of the interview next week.
Rich Stevick on Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years (Part 1)
Give us some background on you and the Amish: How, when, where, why did you get into this field?
Rich Stevick: A dozen years into my teaching career at Messiah College in Pennsylvania, I was asked by a colleague who was teaching a course on Amish life if I would pick up the class because he was leaving Messiah. When I told him that I didn’t know anything about the Amish, he suggested that since it was only a three week May-June term class that I learn along with the students. Since that was already my modus operandi, since I had a deep interest in different cultures, and since the class consisted of home stays with Amish families, I said “Why not give it a try.” And that was the start of a fascinating journey that has extended to almost a quarter of a century.
Are you still involved in teaching, researching, and writing?
This week, I just finished teaching our Amish Cross-cultural Studies class for the umpteenth time. My colleague, John Bechtold, and I, started this year’s class on May 22 at Messiah, placed students for six days with Lancaster County Amish families, returned to class for debriefing and more class work, then went to Ohio where our students lived with Holmes County families—to find out, to their surprise, that not all Amish do things just like the Lancaster Amish. Of course, among other things, that’s what we wanted them to learn.
That class is a fascinating subject in itself. Perhaps we can do a follow up soon on Amish America to explore more about what challenges the students face, how you obtain host families, and what they—and you—have taken away from such a class and experience over the years. But for now I want to ask you how you happened into your studies, research, and writing about Amish youth and their parents.
Every since my first year at Messiah, I taught classes on youth and adolescence—a class called Adolescent Development. It was one of my favorite classes to teach. When I started teaching the Amish class in 2001, I never thought about researching and writing about Amish adolescence. I soon found, however, that few of the things that I wanted to know about Amish teens and parenting were in the major books of that time, e.g., Amish Society by John Hostetler. My interests and curiosity led me deep into the subject, and eventually I realized that I needed to share what I was learning with other scholars of the Amish, with the public at large, and with interested Amish, especially my research on the Internet for this book.
How difficult was it for you to learn about the youth and about Amish parenting? I thought that this information tended to be privileged and off-limits to outsiders.
You are right. My feeling is that Amish in general have been protective of that information, perhaps because it has been an area in which parents and ministers have felt vulnerable. They like to see things “decent and under control,” and, of course, human behavior does not always match that ideal, especially with the emerging generation.
I think I was able to gain the confidence of Amish adults and youth over time because it was not a hit, run, and publish approach. Instead, I got to know many of them over the years of teaching my class and developing relationships. Also, I was fortunate to have some highly respected Amish leaders as friends, and this gave me instant credibility with new Amish contacts. (I quickly learned that dropping the right names in Amish circles resulted in an expanding circle of helpers.) And I was extremely careful in keeping sources confidential and not using Amish names in my writings (the research process I took in studying Amish youth, smart phones, and the Internet for this book took a somewhat different direction, but I’ll save that for later.)
Your first book, Growing Up Amish: The Teenage Years, came out just seven years ago. Why a revision so soon, and why did the title change from “Teenage” to “Rumspringa Years”?
The title change first: Most Amish define rumspringa as that time between age 16 and marriage when youth are free to expand their peer contacts, often beyond the family and neighborhood ties, to socialize with others and eventually seek and find a mate. The media have often distorted this to mean a walk on the wild side or perpetual Spring Break for all Amish youth. My book deals with the Amish youthful experience till the end of rumspringa, a period that culminates in marriage for most youth. Hence the title change.
As far as change in the Amish youth culture in seven years, I have found significant changes in many communities. The most significant, by far, is the challenge of smartphones and the Internet. When I wrote my first book, I devoted exactly one sentence to cell phones and the youth. Now, great numbers of youth, especially in the large settlements, are on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram, and my hope is to live long enough to see how, and if, this Electronic Rumspringa, as I call it, will impact the future values and behaviors of the rumspringa-generation Amish.
What were some of the challenges you faced in learning about Amish youth on the Internet?
After my Johns Hopkins editor, Greg Nicholl, contacted me about a newspaper article he read on Amish youth hitching up to Facebook, I decided to study Amish youth and social media. My first challenge was to become familiar with American pop culture so that I knew the Internet rumspringa Amish youth were talking about or participating in. As a professor who retired in 2005, I had pretty much ignored social media and entertainment developments. I did know a bit about Facebook, but I needed the help of a young faculty member to get on and accept “friends.” Suddenly, in my research, I was faced with entertainment or communication options I knew very little about, e.g., Pandora, Hulu, YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, iPods, iTunes, etc., etc.
In seeing their publicly posted photos, available on most Amish Youngie Facebook sites, I also learned about hand signals, duck faces, tankinis, board shorts, beer pong, and a multitude of texting acronyms. I was definitely not ROTFL (Rolling on the floor laughing). I learned also about their favorite movies, television programs, and music, most of which I had never heard about but was available through their smartphones, and all in the public domain.
How I was able to determine who had grown up Amish, who had left or was in the process of leaving the Amish, and who had Amish names but belonged to the conservative but not Old Order Amish Spring Garden or Beachy Amish church must wait for another conversation—or reading the book.
Which technology or aspect of life do you think is hardest for Amish youth to give up on joining the church?
My sense from my talking with Amish adults and youth is that the smartphone/ Internet will be the hardest thing to give up for many. They believe that one reason is that it is so addictive, and another reason is that it is so easy to hide. One of my committed Amish adult friends said that he had significant difficulty “putting it away” after he worried about the example he was setting for his children and others. Also, I see names of young Amish acquaintances on Facebook who have joined the church but are still active users. (I know of no Amish churches, with the possible exception of Ohio’s New New Order Amish, who would permit or condone Facebook use by members).
I can say with certainty that the control of computers, and especially smartphones and the Internet, are by far the greatest concern among ministers and parents today. The other thing that is hard for many young men to give up, albeit not technological, is league sports—softball, hockey, basketball, etc. But enough for today. Let’s continue this next week, Erik, with other questions from you and from Amish America readers.
Growing Up Amish 3-Book Giveaway & Interview: Part 2
Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years is the new book by Richard Stevick, professor emeritus of psychology at Messiah College. From the book description:
In the second edition of Growing Up Amish, Stevick draws on decades of experience working with and studying Amish adolescents across the United States to produce this well-rounded, definitive, and realistic view of contemporary Amish youth. Besides discussing the impact of smartphones and social media usage, he carefully examines work and leisure, rites of passage, the rise of supervised youth groups, courtship rituals, weddings, and the remarkable Amish retention rate. Finally, Stevick contemplates the potential of electronic media to significantly alter traditional Amish practices, culture, and staying power.
Last week we asked for your questions, quite a few of which Rich answered in Part 1. In Part 2 below, Rich answers over a dozen more of your questions on Amish youth, Ordnung, differences among Amish, and many other topics.
A big thanks to Rich, as he really went above and beyond in answering so many questions here and on the original post.
Win one of 3 copies of Growing Up Amish
Johns Hopkins University Press has kindly provided 3 copies of Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years as a giveaway for Amish America readers.
To enter, leave a comment or question on this post.
If you already asked a question on Part 1, you can also comment here for an extra entry.
We’ll draw 3 winners at random and post them here next Wednesday, June 25th.
Rich Stevick Interview Part 2: Your Questions
Trish in Indiana: In the Amish communities in my area, there have been serious problems of youth getting into drug abuse. This problem is not, of course, unique to the Amish, and the Amish make no effort to deny that it exists, but I wonder if your research has given you any perspective on a specifically Amish response to the issue.
Richard Stevick: Trish, my sense is that illicit drug use among Amish youth has certainly declined in Lancaster County, PA, where I have had the most access to information. I write that the big turn-around started there after THE 1998 FBI drug bust in which three youth raised in Amish homes were convicted of selling drugs to Amish youth, drugs obtained from the notorious Pagans motorcycle gangs.
Concerned parents sent a letter to all the bishops asking them to read it in their districts. It described what to look for in a person using drugs. Also, a new “gang,” i.e. youth group, was started that had an absolutely no-drugs/no drinking requirement. This, and the adverse publicity to the problem, kick-started the movement to supervised youth groups, now the norm in Lancaster. By all reports, drug use is way down compared with that in the parents’ generation.
I cannot speak with authority on the other big settlements, Holmes Co in OH, N. Indiana, and Geauga County, OH, but I’m sure that the problem exists. I’m also sure that the drug problem is characteristic of a minority of Amish youth, with marijuana being the drug of choice. Rumors of meth labs in Indiana surface periodically, but I have not tracked the authenticity of those rumors. In general, I believe things are better than they were 15 or 20 years ago. “Devil’s Playground” behavior is definitely at the extreme end of the wildness spectrum. And Lancaster County’s experience may offer a model to other communities who are still struggling.
Trish: Have you discussed how the Amish community attempts to deal with young people who may develop problems with drugs like meth, or for that matter alcohol?
Rich: Google “Amish Youth Vision Project” and also James Cates, its founder, to see a carefully thought out response to alcohol abuse and drug use in Northern Indiana.
Trish: Is this behavior something that most youth who get involved with it are able to set aside when they enter the church and marry, or is there a “silent epidemic” continuing among Amish adults?
Rich: I doubt that it is a silent epidemic, although I hear occasionally from Amish friends that a certain person in the community has been negatively affected by his drug abuse during his rumspringa years. Incidentally, I am amazed by the seeming lack of Amish adult alcoholics, given the weekend binging of a significant minority of youth. One of my Amish friends conjectured that the scarcity of adult alcoholics might be attributed to his belief that when mainstream youth abuse alcohol, it is often an attempt at self-medication for dysfunctional families or childhood abuse whereas Amish drinking is more likely a recreational activity. This may be over-simplified; or it may reflect truth.
Good questions, Trish. You may have better insights on the Indiana scene than I do.
Sheila Rose: You mentioned your students staying first with the Lancaster Amish, and later, with the Holmes County Amish, and stated that there were differences between the two. What are some of the most outstanding differences between the Lancaster and Holmes County Amish? Thank you.
Rich: Hi, Sheila, lots of superficial differences exist, e.g., clothing styles, Deitsch accents, holidays observed, singings or lack thereof, carriage designs, bicycles versus scooters, etc, etc.
The significant differences have to do with the following:
- All Lancaster settlements are under the same Ordnung, or set of rules/guidelines, whereas Holmes/Wayne/Stark Counties have a diversity of affiliations (Amish denominations, if you will).
- Lancaster County has no New Order Amish, unlike Holmes County.
- Almost all Lancaster County youth attend Sunday night singings. Probably half, at most, do in Ohio.
- Many Holmes County Amish do not practice a strict shunning (Streng Meidung), whereas all Lancaster settlements do. I discuss this at more length in my book.
When my students finish their first home stay in Lancaster, they assume that they pretty much know all about Amish life. After they experience their Holmes County home stay, they develop some Amish humility on that subject 🙂
Lindsay Ems: I’m wondering, Dr. Stevick, have you seen any changes in how young people are preparing for their future professional lives given a quickly changing economy? Are they starting to envision new careers for themselves? If so, how do new technologies become part of this process? Thanks!
Rich: That’s a good question. My sense is that older youth are certainly aware of the changing economic and technological scenes and are giving thought to how and where they might fit in. My other sense is that the school curricula in the private Amish schools have not changed much beyond the traditional Three Rs. Karen Johnson-Weiner would be a good one to ask. Or check her excellent book on Amish education, Train Up a Child.
By the way, the 15 year old son of one of our Amish friends in Lancaster County was asked by the narrator on the PBS documentary The Amish—a wonderful film—what occupation he might consider when he “grows up.” If I recall correctly, he rattled off a dozen and a half occupations, all of which were traditional manual skills jobs. Of course, increased numbers of Amish, at least in the large settlements, are doing desk and/or computer work.
Galen: Do the Amish read your books?
Rich: I certainly hope so! Those who have generally give me an A for accuracy and tell me that the truth sometimes hurts. In reality, my book, especially with the edgy cover photo, might not be one they would browse through if other Amish were standing nearby. However, I think that Amish parents and ministers would be well served to read my sections in the new edition on the Electronic Rumspringa, The Growing Challenge of the Internet, The Internet Cornucopia, Smartphone Challenges, Discovering the Social Media, and my Epilogue.
Galen: Since you are very knowledgeable in the subject, have you ever been contacted by an Amish teen struggling through the Rumspringa years?
Rich: I don’t remember this happening in terms of whether to leave or not. When working at Green Pasture/Philhaven, an Amish-sponsored mental health residency in Pennsylvania, I had opportunities to talk with youth who were struggling with emotional, family, and/or mental health issues.
Alicia Ernst: With such a strong interest in sports have you heard of any problems with gambling addiction?
Rich: I’ve asked about this, and the answer was that they do not know of any youth involved in gambling or addiction. I’m sure it happens, but I’m guessing that it is far less common among the Amish than with their English counterparts.
Emily: I am curious to know what the effect of your students (living for a week’s time with the Lancaster and Holmes County Amish families) is on the Amish families themselves (i.e., the families with whom the students lived).
Rich: We have done no studies on this. As you might guess, families who are willing to accept an “outsider” into their home for several days are atypical. They tend to be on the progressive end of the spectrum (although I have had a “Dan” family, “Tobe” family, and Swartzentruber family host my students or my wife and me.) These self-selected families tend to be sociable, relaxed with outsiders, and curious about the life and family of their student guests. “We have learned from them,” is an often heard comment by the Amish host parents.
Al in KY: Have retention rates gone down yet (or increased) among Old Order Amish youth who are using internet, cell phones, etc.? Have retention rates gone up any in recent years among New Order youth who seem to have more supervision during their teenage years? What do you think future trends will be?
Rich: Al, I think I dealt with this in Part 1. Somebody needs to do these studies—a very important issue.
Damon Hickey: Would someone addicted to crack cocaine think it’s all right to “cheat a little” with drugs after joining church? So why does smartphone use not carry the same stigma, and why are the Amish you mentioned so casual about “cheating” with the internet–or anything, for that matter–even after they’ve become parents? In other words, why commit yourself voluntarily to a church that expects you to give up a lot and then look for ways to “cheat”?
Rich: “Cheating,” as you put it, varies a lot from person to person, family to family, and settlement to settlement. Amish can be just as skilled as we are in rationalizing non-compliance with expected behavior. For example, “Our Ordnung does not say anything about watching DVDs while we are traveling on vacation.” Or “Even though our Ordnung permits only scooters, I only ride bicycles or tricycles in Pinecraft, Florida, when I am there. I would not want to offend anybody back home by doing so.”
Or more creatively, “The ‘abschtelling’” part of the Ordnung deals with man-made rules; The forschtelling part with which we all agree is based on the Bible, and we all follow that.” (I hope I have not reversed those two parts, but, hopefully, you get the point.) Also, there are certain lines that very few members will cross, e.g., driving automobiles or watching television. At least that is my experience. I’m glad to hear from others on this matter.
Naomi Wilson: My question is: have you encountered Amish (leaders or individual families) who for a while were taking a “look the other way” or “see what happens”approach to internet and smart phones, but are now quickly backpedaling or taking an increasingly strong stance against such technologies, as the dangers become more apparent?
Rich: David McConnell, co-author of the book (among my top three), An Amish Paradox, a carefully studied and beautifully written book on the Ohio Amish, told me that this is exactly what happened in Holmes County: the Internet and smart phones flooded the community before most people understood or recognized what was happening. Now many leaders and parents are trying to get them “under control.” My feeling is that the New Order Amish have been more pro-active in this respect. The Lancaster Leit (folk), as of last fall’s bishop meetings, have also distributed an directive on the prohibition of smart phones for members. Time will tell.
Gayle Grabowski: Given the historic tradition and practice of pacifism within the Plain Communities, is there any interest among these youth to participate in military service, since other areas of the status quo are being challenged, and since their exposure to world events is obviously increasing? Or, are the teachings of pacifism so fundamental and defining for the Plain Communities, that this would be one area that would not be challenged?
Rich: Gayle, A fine question. I have not detected any weakening of the Amish commitment to non-resistance or belonging to the military. This is an abiding commitment, as far as I can tell. During times of popular wars, such as World War II, a number of youth growing up in Anabaptist homes, allowed themselves to be drafted or joined in non-combatant roles. Some actually were full-fledged soldiers, such as my Swartzentruber bishop friend who spent four years in Japan in the U.S. Air Force but later returned to the fold. Also, to the Amish’s consternation, there has been an uptick in males joining the church during war time or the reinstallation of the draft. Overall, though, the Amish do not join the military.
Tom Geist: Have you had much contact with the Swartzentruber or Swiss Amish? I wonder how they fair next to Old Order Amish with their kids and the issues that surround the running around years.
Rich: Tom, I have had excellent contact with the Swartzentruber people over the years, thanks, in part to my friendship with a Swartzentruber bishop and thanks to the help of Karen Johnson-Weiner, the absolutely ultimate authority on all things Swartzentruber. (I have volunteered to work with her if/when she writes an entire book on that group. This is my reminder to her 🙂 )
As far as the Indiana Swiss folks, this is still part of my personal Amish puzzle. Most of my knowledge comes from reading. I have never been to Adams or Allen Counties in Indiana. If any of you out there have good contacts, I would be glad to receive them.
Ann K: Along the same lines as what Lee Ann asked – have you seen that the more conservative groups have a less supervised rumspringa and the more liberal groups really keep a tighter control of their youth? That seems to be the case with the groups I’ve come across here in southwestern Pa.
Rich: As you certainly know, “conservative” and “liberal” are often defined in terms of the definer 🙂 . Generally speaking, parents in the large settlements are taking a more proactive approach with their Youngie, as attested to by the Ohio Midway youth movement in the 80s and the Lancaster supervised movement from the late 90s on. Those more conservative groups in terms of the material ordnung tend to have a more hands-off approach with their youth. A number of them still have youth singings w/o any adult presence. And the New Order Amish, with adult involvement since their inception in the late 1960s are very hands-on. I’m sure that numbers of settlements are more or less in a state of flux regarding adult involvement in Rumspringa.
Loretta Shumpert: I, too, wanted to know which local stores will carry your book, as when I order a book the shipping charge can be costly.
Rich: I may have already answered this in Part 1, but just in case: Gospel Bookstore in Berlin, OH; probably the Lancaster Mennonite Historical Society in Lancaster, PA; Amazon.com which discounts the book a bit but then adds the $4 Shipping and Handling charge. Or I still have a few to sell at the regular Amazon price, plus $2 instead of $4. Hope this helps.
Loretta: Do the Amish ever use outside (English) counsellors for marriage problems, unruly kids or grief counselling? I’m sure it’s probably seldom, but is it ever done?
Rich: Traditionally, Amish in general either tried to deal with these problems through the ministry or through respected members of the congregation who were considered “Amish counselors.” That has changed drastically in recent years with psychiatric and counseling services available through places like Philhaven/Green Pasture and Red Rock Refuge in PA; Spring Haven in Holmes County, OH; and Rest Haven in Goshen, IN, among others. The People Helpers movement, mostly in PA, works as an educational force for mental, spiritual, and marital health among plain people. In the past, my older Amish friends say that most of the above problems were either ignored, with hopes that they would improve or disappear, or were “swept under the rug.” Now Amish in the more progressive settlements are very proactive in dealing with these issues and others.
Linda: Have you seen any change in the work ethic of men raised on the farm, versus the younger generation where the fathers worked in an Indiana factory, as far as endurance or being able to “see” the work that could be done?
Rich: That’s a great question, Linda, and I have no direct knowledge about the “factory Amish,” other than that to this point, there seems to be no discernible loss of factory workers to the outside world. I know that some of my Amish acquaintances do worry about that possibility. I would be happy to hear from any of you who know or who are thinking about this question.
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Growing Up Amish: The Rumspringa Years is available at Johns Hopkins University Press, Amazon, Amazon Kindle, and many other places.
Your perception
What one facet of your Amish belief system holds you to the system? And what one thing pulls you away? Thank you.
To all of you who have submitted questions
If I have not responded to your question, please do not assume that it was irrelevant or unimportant. So many of you have written such fine questions or raised such important issues that I could wish that you were all in my class on Amish life. Many of these queestions I will not get to because of lack of time. Erik may go through and combine themes for me. But I hope that you will feel free to jump into the discussion if you have answers, suggestions, issues, or further questions. I like to learn from my students and would like to continue to learn from you. Rich Stevick rstevick@messiah.edu For you who asked about getting my book, it is available on Amazon.com or at Gospel Bookstore in Berlin, OH. I also have a few copies I could sell at the current Amazon.price, plus $2 S&H instead of $4. (Note: If you order at least 2 from Amazon, they will ship for free, I believe.) Machs goot. R
Rumpringa in Pinecraft
Greetings Richard,
My question is if Pinecraft is becoming an “acceptable” get-away for Amish un-baptised youth to express rumspringa?
Richard Lee Dawley
Amish Insight
Waukesha, Wisconsin
I am going to reply because Pinecraft is my home. MY answer is “No”. I am Facebook friends with Amish youth from all over. Pinecraft is not the outlet to get away with Facebook etc.
Is Pinecraft, FL, an acceptable rumspringa spot?
Hi, Richard, Pinecraft is almost always off limits to both young and older from the most conversative affilitions. Adults worry about the lack of supervision and the influence of the peer group. On the other hand, parents these days probably prefer that their teens be at Pinecraft rather than at the Siesta Key beach scene. Most parents believe that Pinecraft is much better now than when they were young (See my chapter on Working Hard and Having Fun.)
Evolution
As with many (all?) religious groups, the Amish have changed slowly over the years. Do you see them accepting the use of smart phone technology in the coming years?
role of drug abuse in Amish community
In the Amish communities in my area, there have been serious problems of youth getting into drug abuse. This problem is not, of course, unique to the Amish, and the Amish make no effort to deny that it exists, but I wonder if your research has given you any perspective on a specifically Amish response to the issue.
Have you discussed how the Amish community attempts to deal with young people who may develop problems with drugs like meth, or for that matter alcohol? Is this behavior something that most youth who get involved with it are able to set aside when they enter the church and marry, or is there a “silent epidemic” continuing among Amish adults?
Ham/Cb Radio
Hello
I was wondering why don’t the Amish people
not use the Ham/ Cb radios to communicate to each others? They will not be connect to the outside world and they don’t need to use outside phone.
cb/ham radios
The use of these are technology, no privacy and a temptation to hear the outside world since non english are always broadcasting ,and bad language can often be heard. Plus you have to have a license to use any ham radio and Ove never seen,nor heard of any Amish interested.
Gay/Lesbian
Statistically, there surely are gay and lesbian Amish youth. How does the culture approach that subject?
The only time I’ve ever heard “gay” and “Amish” in the same sentence was in an article I read in a local paper here in my state. It was actually a piece on the local Mormon group at our university.
One of the members of this group (all of the Amish groups in this state are Quite Conservative) came out as gay to his parents when he was 16 (if I recall correctly). They kicked him out and he was actually now attending college (in dance!). He found acceptance in the Mormon faith–granted, they wouldn’t accept him actually having a partner, but he was accepted as a “Child of God” and a member of the church. But, the article was about their Mormon trip to Indiana or Missouri–I can’t remember, not really about this young man’s experience growing up gay and Amish.
Beyond that, I’ve met an elderly Amish man that I’m pretty sure was gay.
The topic has never come in conversation for me with Amish people, but I’m pretty sure it’s quite, quite taboo.
Hi Annette,
Thanks for your input, I know some on would prefer this subject never come up. I find that Amish people seem to act like non-Amish people back in the 50’s/60’s, which was to not really deal with the subject well. It was easier to say that the guy was a ‘confirmed bachelor’ or the woman was an ‘old maid’ and let it go at that. Maybe Rich will have some additional info on the subject but I find that:
1) It’s hard to find this info out
2) Most people would rather not think or talk about it.
Could you email me for a private question Annette?
Tom Geist…. Lincoln, Ne
LincNebr@hotmail.com
Is it then not proper to call someone unmarried an old maid or a bachelor if the only reason they didn’t get married is because they choose not to or couldn’t find someone who would accept them? I guess I just always used those names for any older single person.
I agree...
I agree Mark. It’s not to say that the terms couldn’t be used in the cases that Tom mentioned, but in my maybe-out-of-step-with-the-times understanding, the terms still include the traditional meanings you metioned.
I don’t think Mark’s saying that a who never marries is necessarily gay.
But, surely, some people who never marry are gay. And, some gay people may marry an opposite sex partner in situations where it is strongly enforced by society, or to be homosexual might even lead to death.
A “confirmed old bachelor” might be gay or straight. The name says nothing about the person’s sexual orientation. Same can be said for women who never marry.
Amish homosexuality
Carol and Annette, Homosexual tendencies among the Amish remain unknown. From my 20 plus years of experience, I would say that homosexual behavior is quite rare or at least rarely reported. Virtually all Amish would categorically reject homosexual behavior as legitimate among Christians and would cite the same verses that other Christians use who condemn the behavior. I did see a Gay Amish Facebook page in my studies, but it had only two members at that time. I have not checked it since.
Celery
In every Amish book I have read, there is always a lot of celery planted if there is a wedding coming up. Why is Celery such an important part of an Amish wedding?
Celery
Here in Germany we did know that Celery is a very strong natural aphroditicum, same as Liebstöckel (Maggy-Kraut).
Andrea--of celery and aphrodisiacs :)
Celery is not common in all settlements, but it certainly is in Lancaster County. None of my Amish friends seem to know why: “It’s always beed done that way.” One non-Amish writer thought it was a fertility symbol. I guess I’m not Freudian enough to buy that. And if it is an aphrodisiac, as our German friend claims, I hope that they will serve it only to the newly-weds and married couples 🙂 It used to be a reliable sign to see an extensive patch of it in an Amish garden,but sadly, their increasingly busy lifestyles has resulted in their usually buying it from a local produce dealer. Incidentally, I was honored at two different wedding preparation days to work alongside the Amish Daadis (grandfathers) dicing celery stalks for the signature creamed celery dish in our area–“Made with real cream,” one of the Daadis humbly informed me. 🙂
Rumspringa and addiction
Even though our fellowship tolerates controlled use of cell phone and internet, the cell phone is still a concern. We keep asking “why does every teen in those rumspringa years need a cell phone? Why do parents allow and assist in this?” We are required to have Netsweeper (blocking and filtering)system installed on all equipment able to access the internet. But cell phones are so small and relatively inexpensive that many youth will still have unfiltered internet access which can’t be good.
However, I would be much more concerned about drug and alcohol use. As far as I know, our youth have very limited, if any, involvement with drugs and alcohol but they can be even more addictive and harmful than the cell phone. My question to Rich is this “Is the work of James Cate and Rich Weber in the Amish Vision Project being copied in other Amish communities where drug abuse is a problem? Do you see the Amish Vision Project as being successful enough that you may need to rewrite your book again in seven years?”
Programs for addictive/destructive behavior
Osiah, Before I respond to what steps are being taken elsewhere, I have contacted Jim Cates to see if he wishes to update us on the Amish Youth Vision Project. (He is working on an important addition to the Johns Hopkins Amish collection on how professionals can work more effectively with an Amish clientele. His tentative title is Serving the Amish: A Cultural Guide for Professional Providers. I have read a pre-publication manuscript, and it will be very helpful.) Perhaps more later.
Rich, do you have any recommendations for Internet filters? Would Amish youngie use a filter or accountability program? Would more Amish teens use a phone that connects to the Internet, or a plain phone that does not?
In 2010, Shippensburg Christian Fellowship in Pennsylvania used NetNanny as an Internet filter.
“Our internet policy has also developed over the years to meet the challenges of new technology. Originally, we had email in our homes, but blocked access to the WWW. In the cases where businesses needed access to manufacturers’ sites, we allowed site specific access with the rest of the web blocked. Otherwise, if a person needed to use the internet, they were to go to a public library and use it. In the last year, we revised the policy, because we discovered that it wasn’t coping with the new technology. We decided that all computers should get NetNannny, with everything blocked but email. If a person needs access to the internet because of work or educational purposes, then they could do one of two things–have a list of specific sites that they could access or if they needed browser cabilities to have the NetNanny filter set to certain specifications. In the case of the later they also have to install an accountablity program, which will send a log of sites accessed to another person. For anything other than email, specific permission has to be asked of the brotherhood, which decides on a case by case basis if it is necessary. This was all thrashed out during the course of several brother’s meetings.”
http://mennodiscuss.com/viewtopic.php?f=33&p=271619
Comment on Rich Stevik on Growing Up Amish Part 1
Rich,
Thank you for your efforts in writing this book. Does the acceptance of Rumspringa change depending on the district’s ordnung? In other words, would Swartzentruber Amish be even more stringent on Rumspringa than say Beachy Amish or is it all the same regardless of the district rule?
Many thanks
Variations in the rumspringa experience
Rumspringa youth are not really under the requirements of the Ordnung until they become members. The practice of rumspringa varies significantly among various affiliations. Occasionally the Ordnung will specify parental obligations under certain conditions–e.g., what to do with a 21 year old son who has a car and has not joined the church: can he still stay at home. Interesting to me is the very conservative Swartzentruber Amish declare that their youth do not have a rumspringa period; and some of the New Order people make a similar claim. A lot depends on how one defines rumspringa, which is a topic for a different discussion.
I was wondering if you’ve found a difference in smart phone use in regards to girls vs. boys? I’m curious if girls might be a bit more shy about posting on Facebook or Twitter vs. a boy of the same age. Maybe I’m completely wrong and the usage is about the same!
Good question on cell phone, etc. usage
Amanda, Based on our preliminary investigation of Facebook postings, I perceive no sex differences, although we (Charles Jantzi and I) have yet to do a statistical analysis. One difference we noted is that girls in Lancaster County more frequently post pictures of themselves in traditional garb, whereas very few boys do so. In the Holmes County, OH, area and in Northern Indiana, most of the postings, male or female, would be indistinguishable from Messiah College students where I teach. Many excellent studies are waiting to be done for youthful Internet Amish users vs non-users, e.g, retention; age of joining church; attrition studies., etc.
Differences
You mentioned your students staying first with the Lancaster Amish, and later, with the Holmes County Amish, and stated that there were differences between the two. What are some of the most outstanding differences between the Lancaster and Holmes County Amish? Thank you.
Absolutely fasinating....
Wow! This is absolutely fascinating to me. Since becoming interested in the Amish right after finishing my post-graduate work in 2010, I’ve not gotten into the touristy stuff, but have sought to find out more and more of where-the-rubber-meets-the-road real life of these people. And as a minister, this area of concern over the teens navigating through this period has been close to my heart.
My first trip to the Amish included a chance to visit in an Amish church service in Lancaster, PA. When they found out I was a minister, they included me among the ministers seated in the midst of the congregation — nothing like learning something so new and different with all eyes on you for three hours. (And BTW, you can sing along in German without knowing German! ) But afterward I was able to speak for a while with one of the ministers, and what he shared with me totally dovetails with one of the main points of this article. He was concerned about the impact that technology (computers, phones) would have upon the Amish as a whole. With more and more Amish being employed off the farm, they were being exposed to and even required to work with these devices, and the long-term impact was no small concern to this minister.
I should tell this as well: On that same trip, our (my wife and I) first night included supper in/near Berlin, OH. An Amish girl there offered to give us a buggy ride (which we accepted), and afterward we had a chance to visit with her (talkative) father. Finding out that we were heading to Lancaster, he wanted us to let him know how our visit there went. (He was curious about how PA Amish compared to OH Amish.) To my utter surprise, my first conversation with an Amish man (this guy) included him asking me, “Do you text?” (The man didn’t owe a cell phone, but his not-yet-baptized teen daughter did, and apparently the whole family used it.) Talk about a mental incongruency — my first real face-to-face exposure to Amish and he’s asking me about texting. And to add insult to injury (so to speak), I (who have been such a tech-nerd all my life) had to tell him “no” — and in doing so functionally admit that an Amish man was more tech-savvy than I was. That smarted! 😉
I would be interested in knowing more about this class mentioned in the article. When is it next offered? Does it require going to PA, or do you have other Amish areas (e.g., areas closer to MO where I live) that participate in this? Are there additional classes or possibly degree programs that continue further this study? Can you point me to a place to find out more information on it? (Oh, and do I have to be able to text to take this class?? 😉 )
Hi Don,
My parents (who are not Amish) have visited Amish Country (Lancaster) for many years. Just recently they have attended the Weavertown Amish Church. Both times they attended, they were invited back to the host family’s house for the afternoon meal. I’m amazed that they would be accepting to strangers attending their services not to mention how gracious they are to invite people back to their homes. I, too, would like to attend a service. I’m also interested in the course that Rich talks about.
Best,
Galen
Newburyport, MA
Hi, Galen. Our situation was that we were staying with an Amish family that rented out their dawdy (sp?) house by the night. When we were making reservations we asked about the possibility of attending an Amish church service. Since the congregation was used to them bringing the house guests with them, outsiders attending was not all that unusual. We did the same thing (although it was a different congregation) on a subsequent visit 2 years later. In both instances we stayed for the congregational meal of traditional Amish fare — Women and children eating separately from the men.
Present and future Amish-themed classes
Thanks for your fine entry. Our class gets filled quickly with Messiah College undergraduates, so I have no good news to share RE that course. If I decide to offer an independent class on Amish life, it will probably be only here in Holmes County where we now live, and I would let AA members know via Erik. And, the answer is “Yes, of course you need to text if you’re going to take a class on the Amish–or at least a class on Amish youth.” In my Rumspringa Years book just out, I tell of my very first interview in Pinecraft, FL, with an 18 year old Amish youth. It’s what I would have expected from one of my first year college students, not from an Amish-reared girl and texting while talking was the issue. It is illustrative of what is happening, at least among the fast track youth in the large settlements. Rich
Thanks...
Thanks for the response, Rich — this specific one, as well as the various ones in the thread. I, and I’m sure others, appreciate your time and effort.
So you’re from Holmes Co.? A couple of years ago my wife and I were looking for something as close to the inter-cultural Amish experience that we could find, and locate a working Amish dairy farm there in Mt. Hope that rented out a small annex of their home to visitors. They were very open to interaction (which we made full use of ), including an optional meal (upon request) with the family. Other than the church services I previously mentioned, staying with this family (who we’ve now visited twice and consider among our friends) is probably the most cherished part of my Amish experience to date. I hope you’ll forgive me if I envy you a bit for the beautiful place that you call home.
Thanks again.
Rich, please forgive my double-posting to your response, but I have a tangent question if you have a moment. Being in academia, are you aware of any (post-graduate?) degree programs that would specialize in the Amish world? My personal interests are more in the ministry and/or religious history fields, but I would be open to other angles as well. To be honest, the chances of my pursuing something are not great — but it is something that I’ve been curious about for a while and would like to know. (If it helps, I currently have BA, MA, MDiv and DMin degrees (earned and accredited) in Bible/Ministry fields. And as Erik can tell you, I like taking *lots* of Amish pictures. )
Thanks.
Giving up addictions
To paraphrase Will Rogers, I don’t belong to a church that requires me to give up anything; I’m an Episcopalian. But the Amish church requires its members to give up a lot, and they know that when they accept baptism. Several new studies show that frequent internet use is addictive and alters the brain in significant ways. Internet addicts are in a constant state of arousal stress, their brains and bodies responding with a fight-or-flight response all the time. When separated from their connection, they can become extremely anxious and depressed. Would someone addicted to crack cocaine think it’s all right to “cheat a little” with drugs after joining church? So why does smartphone use not carry the same stigma, and why are the Amish you mentioned so casual about “cheating” with the internet–or anything, for that matter–even after they’ve become parents? In other words, why commit yourself voluntarily to a church that expects you to give up a lot and then look for ways to “cheat”?
Conumdrum on policing Facebook/social media?
I’m wondering how the Amish church would be able to identify who is or isn’t using Facebook. Would this not pose a problem, that someone reporting who is on Facebook would themselves be on the internet/social media?
Facebook police: Job opportunity
Indeed you have pointed out the dilemma for Amish elders reporting Facebook users to the ministry: “How do YOU know that they are on facebook?”! Maybe some enterprising person can offer their services to local congregations as a consultant and bounty hunter to turn in FB users–getting higher fees for any church member apprehended. I know you know I’m kidding. Actually in the large communities, parents often know if a child is on Facebook, even if the parent does not understand FB functioning and Internet use. The number one concern of all Amish parents for their children being on the Internet is the temptations of pornography, especially for the sons.
I often hear “How will the Amish adapt to this new technology?” My question is: have you encountered Amish (leaders or individual families) who for a while were taking a “look the other way” or “see what happens” approach to internet and smart phones, but are now quickly backpedaling or taking an increasingly strong stance against such technologies, as the dangers become more apparent?
BTW, thank you
This interview convinced me to read your book. The issue is a big one for our family. My husband and I are increasingly convinced that we need to drop our use of internet from our home. We are also in the process of joining an Amish Mennonite church that permits these things, although most church members use filters. How we will handle the issue with our children, plus the logistics of doing business, are huge questions.
Maybe we will be checking Amish America from the library, instead of from home in a couple years. : )
Technology
When they join the Amish Church, do they have to give all their tech gadgets as smartphone, computer, etc. to the ministers (leaders) ? If so, what do the leaders do with them?
I can only speak to a couple of instances — and would be curious to know what is the norm in the broader scope of Amish-life. But for a family that we stayed with (kind of a B&B) in Holmes Co., OH, the husband/father (a diary farmer) had a cell phone, even though he was a baptized church member. And in the case of the Amish man I mentioned in a separate post on this thread (the “texting” Amish ), in that situation when the daughter would eventually be baptized she would simply pass her cell phone down to her younger siblings. But as to what would happen to the phone when the youngest sibling would join the church, they really didn’t explain that to us.
Just a thought Don…that ‘possible’ by the time the older sibling gives up their phone a better phone is out on the market and the younger sibling would not want the old one anyway. (and like most English kids…the phones screen is probably broken by that time too. =)
I suppose that is possible.
But it does bring up a side question — if the family has been used to having a cell phone for the, what, 15-20 years as a phone is passed from older to younger child, then how hard is it to give it up when the last kid is baptized and no one to legitimately pass it down to?
a friend that lives in shipshea says that the cell phones are often givin to friends or other Amish children
Greetings from shipshewana
Hi james. It’s Mike. Hope you are doing well. What part of the country are you in now?
Shipshewana,Indiana Mike
Mike? Dont know if i know u or not. I live in tn. Im fruends with Sue Ellen Wagner Yodrr and her Husband Leon Yoder…they gelped me with,a place to stay for the short time i was able to be there.
So you are back home in TN. That is good. You know me from church here.
Shipshewana,Indiana Mike
Sorry, i cant place you. Whats your name? Are u on facebook? Are u on SueEllen Yoders friend list or Darin Yoders friendlist? Ill send u a friend request. Heres my email
beltz196424@gmail.com
What to do with contraband items.
Karon, I have never heard of any bishop or deacon collecting the offending electronic devices. I know that in some of the more conservative communities, parents will take a hammer to the cell phone if they discover it. I related in my book, however, that a father in a conservative settlement advised his neighbor, that rather than destroy the phone, to check to see who other offenders were and to also find out where alcohol was being sold and by whom. (The neighbor didn’t even know how to turn the phone on.) However, when he was shown how, it actually worked for them. But this would be considered extreme by many parents in the large communities.
Question for Mr. Stevick
Can you help me to find out more about what kind of Plains Community is located at Finger,Tennessee please? The name of Stolezfuz was what I rememered having visited the church there once yrs ago. Thank you.
James Beltz
name
I think the name is Stolzefusz…
(sounds better in German)
Finger,Tn Plains folk
Yes…but I am asking for any info on them in the town mentioned…that was my main point
Writing Amish
As a writer, I find this topic fascinating. I, too, have seen the gradual emergence of technology among Amish youth. In Shipshewana, it is commonplace for teens to have a cell phone–which they usually charge at their place of work. I am ordering your book now, and looking forwarding to reading it. Thanks so much!
Rich Stevick on Growing Up Amish
Dear Mr. Stevick,
Thank you for all the effort and research you put into your book. I can’t wait to read it.
I have two questions:
Do the Amish read your books?
Since you are very knowledgeable in the subject, have you ever been contacted by an Amish teen struggling through the Rumspringa years?
Thank you for agreeing to do this interview with Erik. We all appreciate your knowledge and dedication to the Amish community as well as your efforts educating the rest of us.
Best,
Galen
Newburyport, MA
Amish Changing?
I have probably read just about every book about
Amish and find everything about them fascinating.
On a recent visit to Shipshewana,IN I did see
some youth with cell phones and their parents with’
them, are they bending the rules or changing?
Sports
With such a strong interest in sports have you heard of any problems with gambling addiction?
Comment on Rich Stevick book
Thank you for sharing you’re years of research. What percentage of youth participate in cell phone & internet usage & what percentage of youth decide not to be baptised?
Promiscuity
I have read so often about the sexual abuse that occurs within the Amish culture. This leads me to wonder how often the young people are promiscuous? Is there sex before marriage? What happens when a girl get pregnant outside of marriage?
promiscuity
… though the strict rules of a Christian Church may be there,
but it was said in the interview that Rumspringa is a quite long time to try, and finally find one’s life partner. What will they do for many years together?
In some non-European cultures it is usual to provide quite a freedom to the youth in playing around, etc.
And this is what jumps into my German mind, when I hear the word “Rumspringa”;
the translation is just “to jump wildly to many places”.
I fully agree with your question, what happens in the case of un-planned children? (I vaguely imagine, there will be wedding soon, before child-birth)
Questions on sexual issues & Amish youth
Karen, Nobody, including the Amish, knows how much sexual abuse occurs among the Amish. I and other scholars believe that it is no higher than in our mainstream or evangelical church circles. But who really knows. My friend and former colleague, Charles Bauman from Green Pasture/Philhaven services in Pennsylvania has the same assumption that I have. In general, the progressive Amish are dealing with these issues much better than they did in past generations. For example, Lancaster County Amish now have a committee to deal with sexual abuse issues, and they work with Children and Youth Services. In the past, Amish in general tried, often unsuccessfully, to deal with these issues without outside intervention. As far as promiscuity goes, nobody really knows how frequent that is either. Twenty years ago, I examined the community directory from a settlement with a reputation for loose morals and questionable courtship practices. At that time, I found that 20 percent of the couples had their first baby before the expected nine months. Parents and ministers worked together to change the moral climate, and now the early births are under 10 percent. However, these numbers would be uncommonly high in almost all settlements. According to Amish Paradox, the New Order youth have the lowest incidence of early births. In virtually all settlements, if a girl becomes pregnant before marriage and is a member of the church, she and her boyfriend, if he is a member, are disciplined and “put in the Bann”–excommunicated and shunned for a short time. If they repent, they are then restored but the wedding will be pared down considerably, primarily inviting only family members and relatives. In the rare times that an Amish girl is impregnated by an English boy, the parents and community advises her not to marry the father. (This raises another issue which I will not cover now.) My unsubstantiated judgement is that Amish youth are much less sexually active than mainstream youth, even those youth in professed Christian college circles. But these are guesses.(I deal with these issues in more depth in the book.)
Hut Party
Are the so called “hut parties” as crazy as the tv shows make them out to be?
'm parties a la TV
Hi, Sierra, I have not been able to bring myself to watch much from the current crop of so-called Amish reality shows. I’m guessing they were featured on A.M. An Amish teenager described to me some hut parties in her large settlement, and I have described them briefly in the book. She said that in her “fast” youth group, the guys would watch professional football in the fall instead of going to the singings. Some girls would also join them. Alcohol was usually available and sometimes there was dancing and loud music. More often, she said, the youth basically hung out, played board or card games, and watched sports. So I’m guessing the TV version was not the norm for a typical hut gathering. Hope that helps. Rich
Old Order Amish
Congratulations on your book “Growing Up Amish-Part 1. I have always wondered about the Old Order Amish. Are there still many of the Old Order Amish? Do they follow the strict Ordung and let no other practices in their lives. Sincerely, Jean
Rumspringa generation vs. childhood
I imagine you are spanning in your book on Rumspringa the generation of approx. 16-25 years of age.
As you describe, it is generally very difficult to get inside in such kinds of sociological phenomina.
And I fully agree with you that certainly more aspects may be added later, and some of the items are subject to change.
I need so much to read your book!
And I hope due to new contents you was not compelled to omit too many of the old contents…
And my qustion is, if there are any similar large and comrehensive studies about sociological aspects of CHILDHOOD among the Amish yet?
Do you think the Rumspringa results from earlier childhood education?
Is Rumspringa a logical consequence or contradiction (possibly pre-Christian traits) in the Amish social values system?
A brief answer to your interesting questions
First, I am not aware of any studies of the sociological aspects of Amish childhood. If anybody has referred to them, it would be Johnson-Weiner in her book, Train Up a Child; or Hurst and McConnell’s fine book, Amish Paradox. Maybe Kraybill’s newest book, The Amish, might touch on those studies. As far as I know, it is a subject wide open for theses and dissertations. (Getting the data and observational opportunities will be the researchers’ challenge.) As far as Where/Why did Rumspringa originate, it depends a bit on how you define it. If it is simply an opportunity for increased independence, more time with peers, and finding a mate, for the majority of Amish youth, it may reflect the customs of a simpler past of 150 years ago. Kraybill and other think that it may be part of an Anabaptist core value that requires adult commitment while giving the young person “an illusion” of choice since the entire culture pushes a young person to “give himself up and join.” The wild aspect, although definitely a part of a significant number of large settlement youth, for example, is not the norm for most Amish youth. Media coverage, sensationalized accounts, and vivid examples make the wildness appear more universal than it us. I hope my chapters on rumspringa and courtship give a more nuanced and realistic picture.
Professional Development
Thank you for this detailed discussion of really interesting changes taking place among Amish youth. I am currently working on my dissertation which examines changes in technology use in Indiana Amish communities- with a particular focus on business and work. I’m wondering, Dr. Stevick, have you seen any changes in how young people are preparing for their future professional lives given a quickly changing economy? Are they starting to envision new careers for themselves? If so, how do new technologies become part of this process? Thanks!
The Amish Side of the Service-Learning/Immersion Experience
I am curious to know what the effect of your students (living for a week’s time with the Lancaster and Holmes County Amish families) is on the Amish families themselves (i.e., the families with whom the students lived). Having done quite a bit of work with immersive and service-learning experiences with college students, the cross-cultural experience goes both ways and can often change people in both cultures in profound ways. It reminds me of the Channel 4 series (when the British teens came to the US to stay with a variety of Anabaptist families, including OO Amish), which appeared to demonstrate a general positive and long-lasting effect on all involved.
I’d also be interested to know what the Amish families perceive the benefits for the students would be, particularly when you are soliciting new host families.
Look forward to reading your book. I was running out of new non-fiction options in the field!
Emily
i don´t like you smokes ciggaretts
Book contest
Was this an emotional draining trip for you when you wrote this book? Thank you for the contest — looking forward to reading this book! Blessings!
Emotionally draining project?
Actually, Linda, expanding my contacts with new affiliations, e.g., Pennsylvania’s Nebraska Amish and Lawrence County Amish, plus learning more about youth and parents in Holmes/Wayne/Stark Counties, OH, and in N. Indiana, was energizing. By far, the most challenging part was updating the Index. I finally reached out for professional, competent help–and thanks to JHUP, found it. Thanks for asking. Rich
I would like to know how late at night they stay out before coming home. As a parent that would worry me to what they were doing & if they were safe. Thank you for your info.
Hi Dawn,
Not trying to answer for Rich but let me tell you what I found out a month ago.
I was on a trip to Minnesota and Wisconsin and I got into Granger Mn way around 1 am on a Monday morning. It’s a small town without any motels so I decided to snooze in my car for a few hours before meeting some Amish there. About 1:30 in the morning I woke to hear a horse and buggy going by. I figured maybe there was an Amish business that required the Amish to be up. I started to follow the buggy from a couple of blocks away, with the intent of talking to them once they stopped. (I also didn’t want to spook their horses as the roads have major drop off’s) All of a sudden, here comes another buggy going the other way. Huh? Then I see another buggy in a bit. I lost site of the first buggy, didn’t see where the other ones went… so went back to the place I had been at to nap.
The next day I found out that these were Amish youth that were allowed to get together Sunday nights to get to know each other better. The church district sets the time that they have to stop visiting and head for home. It doesn’t matter if they live a mile from the place or 10 miles, they head home at a specific time.
In a large Amish settlement in Missouri a number of the kids go to the local bar, not to drink (well, some did if they were old enough, or would drink outside where all the buggies parked) but mainly to play pool, watch TV, listen to music, eat a little and charge their cell phones. This was not something limited to Sunday nights, though I am sure more happened then. I would hope the horse that took them home knew the way, because it sounded like a number of the kids were blitzed.
Tom in Lincoln
LincNebr@hotmail.com
This spring, I’ve attended an Amish function every weekend and twice a week I visit an Amish market. (Not the tourist type but the real thing). I see cell phones everywhere. Most phones are not smart phones however. Only a few times have I seen teen age boys and girls huddle around a smart phone trying to get a look at what’s going on.
I still see the phone huts down by the road that are being used quite often. They use cells a lot for work and for connecting with each other.
Last Tuesday I stopped at a roadside vegatable stand. I got strawberries that were picked about an hour ago, spring onions, yellow squash and green zucchini, peas in the hull and sweet pea pods, a small bunch of radishes and big bag of young spinach. It came to 13.50 and all I had was a twenty. Mary Ellen used her cell to call down to the house and shortly her sister was on her bike, peddling up the lane with the correct change.
Cell phone use is quite broad in the Amish here in Holmes County, but most of them are not smart phones. They are usually introduced (in the older generation) for business reasons, and when used by older folks they often stay at the business when quitting time comes.
That said, there are plenty of OO Amish who still dont use them at all, except perhaps when they are with a driver.
Amish Youth and Military Service
Thank you so much Rich for making your research available. Given the historic tradition and practice of pacifism within the Plain Communities, is there any interest among these youth to participate in military service, since other areas of the status quo are being challenged, and since their exposure to world events is obviously increasing? Or, are the teachings of pacifism so fundamental and defining for the Plain Communities, that this would be one area that would not be challenged? Thank you Eric for allowing us this opportunity!
Amish tradition in trouble?
if the Amish begin using smart phones and the internet, do you think would lose much of the essence that identifies them as Amish? is possible that because of this a part of their tradition is lost?
Karina--your question on the Internet & smartphones
Your question about parental worries surrounding youth using the Internet and smartphones is actually the greatest concern among Amish parents and leaders today. They fear three things:Easy access to pornography is number one. But many thoughtful parents also worry that the Internet will lead their youth away from traditional and core values and behaviors. They also worry that users who eventually join the church may find it hard to give up smartphones, etc. and might become corrupted with worldly values. In my Epilogue, I have created a table contrasting Amish values with worldly values. If my comparisons are accurate, one might conclude that the Amish do, in fact, have something to be worried about–an not only Amish parents but conscientious mainstream parents. Thanks for your good questio. Rich
Ricos Stevick
thanks for the reply! I admire the way the Amish live.
paragraphs of consumerism, dedicated to family,
living healthily, getting dressed neatly
for me that is happiness!!
I live in Uruguay, I feel sad to be so far from Lancaster,
dream of sharing a moment with the Amish.
I was born in the countryside best Amish style without electricity, running water or tv.
I can say that was the best time of my life!
God wants someday to return to the field.
I look forward to reading your book, I am curious to know more about Amish customs and culture. affections
differences in ordnungs?
What differences do you see in different ordnungs when dealing with rumspringa? What do conservatives allow vs. Liberals? Thanks! This is such an interesting aspect of Amish culture. I would really love to read your book!
Hi Rich,
Have you had much contact with the Swartzentruber or Swiss Amish? I wonder how they fair next to OO Amish with their kids and the issues that surround the running around years.
Thanks….
Tom in Lincoln
ID
It was mentioned that some Amish will go and purchase drinks at a bar or alcohol in stores. Since they don’t carry any ID how do they prove their age?
A quick answer on IDs among the Amish
Derek, In Pennsylvania, at least, Amish can get non-photo IDs. In both PA and OH, a number of more progressive Amish already have photo IDs, both OOA and New Order Amish. Of course, a lot of Amish would not consider such a thing. Thanks for asking. Rich
Hi Rich,
Along the same lines as what Lee Ann asked – have you seen that the more conservative groups have a less supervised rumspringa and the more liberal groups really keep a tighter control of their youth? That seems to be the case with the groups I’ve come across here in southwestern Pa.
Thanks,
Ann
Changing the old order Amish
Do you think the young generation will phase out the old order ways, I would hate to see that happen.
Biggest Change
This is a fascinating topic and as an avid reader about the Amish, I find it interesting to hear that they are embracing (albeit secretly) some of the latest technology. What do you forsee as the biggest change to the Amish in the future? Can you see them embracing these newer technological changes? If so, how is that different from a telephone &/or electricity?
True Faith
Would you say that most Amish people do develop a true faith in Christ, sincerely following Him in their hearts – besides the outward observances of the Amish rules? I so look forward to reading your book and am happy to learn more about it. Plan to buy, whether I win one or not! :o) Thank you so much!
Hallo, Rich!
Just want to say, great article and interview. I love the idea and reality that is your new book. I want to read it so bad, now. I also love the concept of your Amish-cross Cultural Studies class at Messiah College and how you place students with an Amish family in Pennsylvania or Ohio for a few days or a week. Now I want to go there and take that class! It sounds really interesting and something I would really like. I’ve recently gotten very interested in the Amish (one reason was because I figured out there’s a community in Todd County, two hours from my home here in Minnesota), and I want to write a story about someone going to live with an Amish family there, and I want to use as many facts as possible.
I would love any insight you could give me on family life and school that isn’t already on Amish America. And also what stores your book will be available at.
Can’t think of any particular question right now.
RE Schooling, Family Life, Book sources
Hi, Jessie, Train Up a Child by Karen Johnson-Weiner, is by far the most comprehensive book on Amish schooling. Information on family life is scattered: Check out my top two books on anything Amish, The Amish by Kraybill, et al and Amish Paradox, by Hurst and McConnell. My wife, Pauline’s book, Beyond the Plain and Simple: A Patchwork of Amish Lives has some fine vignettes to give the reader a feel for aspects of Amish life. I have a chapter on the family in my book. Any/all of these are available from Amaon.com. Polly and I have a few copies to sell at the Amazon price, plus $2 shipping. Thanks for inquiring. Rich
I, too, wanted to know which local stores will carry your book, as when I order a book the shipping charge can be costly.
Do the amish ever use outside (Englishe) counsellors for marriage problems, unruly kids or grief counselling? I’m sure it’s probably seldom, but is it ever done?
Have you seen any change in the work ethic of men raised on the farm, versus the younger generation where the fathers worked in an Indiana factory, as far as endurance or being able to “see” the work that could be done?
Have retention rates gone down yet (or increased) among Old Order
Amish youth who are using internet, cell phones, etc.? Have retention rates gone up any in recent years among New Order youth
who seem to have more supervision during their teenage years? What
do you think future trends will be?
Impact of the Internet on the Amish
Al, Your questions on whether use of the Internet correlates with increased attrition among the users is THE big question in my mind–plus whether traditional Amish values and practices will be lost in the on-line generation. That is a fruitful–and challenging area of study. I hope some of the younger scholars step up to this challenge. As far as rentention among the New Order Amish (and the Old Order groups that have instituted supervised singings and youth groups) we, or at least I, do not yet know. The New Order Amish have a much higher attrition rate than do the Old Orders, and I deal with the possible reasons for this in my book. As far as the future of Amish society, I am not very good at predicting. For example, I told my wife in 1966 that “the Amish will be extinct by the end of this century.” Well, Y2K came and went, and instead of dying out, they quadrupled. So I am a cautious prophet but will say that it seems unlikely that if the majority of Internet Amish youth join the church, it cannot help but affect Amish attitudes and practices. (I deal with this in my final chapter and in the Epilogue.) Rich
I am Old Order Amish living in Holmes Co. and I’m amazed at the interest, information, and misinformation on Amish youth and so-called Rumspringa.
Are the issues under discussion here so different from non-Amish teenage issues???
Hi, Mark.
I think the concept of Rumspringa is interesting to non-Amish because it seems rather shocking.
The idea is that the Amish are very holy, religious people who live in a very strict way and that (wrongly) this keeps bad behavior from happening.
Now, whatever Rumspringa might or might not be (and I’m not particularly hot on the issue), I think a good many religious people are often surprised to see that, in fact, religious belief does not mean people always act perfectly. And, to the eyes of some non-Amish Christians, the Amish way seems very safe and pure. That some degree of bad behavior might be tolerated (in the case of Rumspringa) or even exist at all (in the case of people just being human beings) comes as a shock.
I think that’s where much of the interest comes in, and then branches off from there.
Those are good points, Annette. I guess it just surprises me that people think Amish teenagers are going to act so differently from other teenagers. I do think the whole Rumspringa thing seems to focus mostly on the ones who go way out and ignores the many who don’t really go in for all the rough stuff. I also think it’s really hard to make statements on Amish youth in a general way. Not only can there be a big difference from community to community, but even from neighborhood to neighborhood within a community, from one youth group to a next, and family to family.
I totally agree with you. Whatever that’s worth from my perspective. 🙂
Thanks for your comments, Mark
I think they are excellent and very helpful (Of course, I always think that is the case with somebody who agrees with me.) One of my points that I write about is that the common image of all Amish youth involved in wild and hedonistic behavior is a product of media coverage, sensationalized reporting, and the power of vivid images on our perceptions. The behavior of most typical Amish youth that I have met or studied would not interest the reality-type producers or investors. Sensational sells. My interest in Amish youth is both personal and sociological. The future of any conservative culture is dependent upon the youth taking the way. If they don’t, the culture is only a generation or two from disappearing. On a different topic, Mark, if you don’t have a copy of my book, I would gladly get you a copy if you promise to give me your best reality check. I don’t want to be one of the distorters or sesationalizers, even inadvertently. Erik can give you my email address. Machs goot. Rich
Thank you Mark for your contribution! The focus of my interest on these topics is in the Amish Christianity – looking for a different perspective and leadership ideas on handling certain issues. In my corner of the universe, so many parents actually enable destructive adolescent behavior because it is so difficult to prevent. There is not a lot of guidance through the church of which my family attends, either. Not wanting to be part of the problem by complaining, I am searching for practical Christian guidance and leadership examples, not only on how to positively influence my teenage boys to make healthy choices, but how to strengthen my community as well. I have been indoctrinated to believe that Anabaptist theology was heretical, and as a result I have not paid any attention to it, until I moved to a neighborhood where there is a strong Amish and Mennonite presence. Although I have been blessed with the presence of many devout people throughout my life, the Christian example of the Plain People is different and, as such, inspiring. Thank you again, Mark!
Hi Gayle
I think some important things one can learn from the Amish when it comes to raising kids is that firstly, there has to be a set standard which is non-negotiable. Second, there is an age when a certain degree of leniency will be permitted.
Many modern day parents think they have a set standard, only to discover when they have teenagers, that no standard is so firm that it will not crumble under teenage persistence. It helps of cos to have a standard that the majority of parents in the community support and uphold, such as – no dating till you are sixteen. No tattoos or piercings till you are eighteen, etc.
With the second, with say sixteen as a permissible age for leniency, it is a wonderful excuse for a parent not to have to explain or justify their no’s beyond, ‘no! you cannot do that, because you’re not sixteen yet’ or ‘when you’re sixteen you can do that’.
What is allowed before or after sixteen needs to be laid out long before the child reaches the rebellious years of adolescence.
Be warned though, if one gives in on one sixteen year old ‘right’ before the child is sixteen, the rest of the list will be meaningless, thus the non-negotiable standard.
Also from the teenagers point of view, do not use the sixteen year old rights as a source of punishment by withholding them. Rather find other ways. Withholding the ‘rights’ as a punishment will cause major rebellion and disrespect for the system. However rights which are unassailable will be jealously guarded by the older teen and not shared with the younger teens. No teenager waits sixteen years to do something that their fourteen year old sibling will also get to do. Inadvertently, the sixteen year old becomes an enforcer of the rules, by insisting that the younger siblings also have to wait until they are sixteen.
One can always get around the problem of inalienable teenage rights by attaching punishments to those rights. Such as if the teenager breaks the midnight curfew, the right to stay out until midnight on a school night will be suspended for X number of weeks. If the teenager gets a piercing or tattoo before eighteen, all/certain sixteen year old rights will be suspended until eighteen.
It all boils down to reward and punishment, which should be applied consistently from infancy, so that by the time a child becomes an adolescent, they have at least twelve years of experiencing that their parents mean what they say and say what they mean.
Teenagers with clearly defined boundaries of rewards and punishments that are mercifully, yet strictly upheld, are happy teenagers. It is their anchor in a broiling sea of teenage hormones and teenage social pressures. Teenagers should not have to parent themselves.
As they say in educational circles, we don’t have problem children, only problem parents who create problem children.
Rumspringe from my own perspective
I have always been drawn to the Amish, since first watching the movie Witness at age five (I can’t imagine letting my own children watch it!). I begged for trips to Lancaster while I was growing up. I believe my fascination grew out of a deep understanding that so much of what I saw and experienced in my own “world” was very bad, and I had a thirst for a more wholesome way of life. The concept of rumspringe tied directly into this. I thought “how wonderful that when Amish young people get a taste of ‘the real world,’ they choose to reject it! I would too!”
Fortunately, I have come to a more biblical understanding in recent years, and came to reject the world in favor of Christ, but that has only pushed me further towards the traditional Anabaptist way. My husband also has been influenced by the Amish acquaintances in our lives, and renewed his commitment to Christ when we started attending an Amish Mennonite fellowship.
More to come
What a nice showing from everyone with these questions. And thanks Rich for exceeding expectations by jumping right in and answering some right away.
I know Rich will be looking at answering some more for Part 2. If anyone still has one feel free to add it, no guarantee about getting an answer, but at the least we’ll still count it as an additional entry (that is, ask as many questions as you like, but just one extra entry per person) up until the drawing.
I’m late again, but have a question about how the Amish feel about organ donation, as either recipients or donors. Do Amish ever receive heart, lung, liver (etc.) transplants? Are Amish allowed to donate their organs after their death? Could they, for example, donate a kidney to their child or sibling who’s a “match”?
I purchased a used copy of your original book, Rich, but have yet to read it. Will your changes to the revised edition be scattered throughout the older version, or added as chapters, etc.? It’s the next on my list for Summer Reading!
Alice Mary
Thanks for asking, Alice Mary, RE the revision
The basic configuration of the book has not changed. You’ll see the same chapters and order in the Revision: A background of both Anabaptist history and present Amish culture; Amish faith and practice; Developing an Amish identity; schooling; parenting practices and challenges; work and play; youth singings;the rumspringa experience; courtship; weddings; the futur with its challenges and possibilities. I have also added a lot of new material as I have found friends in new area, e.g, among Pennsylvania’s Nebraska and Lawrence County affiliations, and more contacts, both Amish and English, from N IN and OH. The most important part of this edition, however, surrounds what I call the Electronic Rumspringa–the spread of technology among adults and youth, but especially the prevalence of smartphones, Facebook, and Internet issues. In my Epilogue (new), I contemplate the possible present and future effects of this phenomenon on Amish life. I will be eager to hear your (collective and individual) thoughts on that issue. In short, as you might guess, I believe the new edition has much to add to the arena of ideas.