“Amish & Mormon”: 8 Things That Caught My Eye In The Latest Video
“I feel like one thing they learned, is they could stay culturally Amish, and doctrinally be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
That is an LDS church member speaking about 3 Ohio Amish convert families – in a new video titled “Amish Latter-day Saints: Blending Two Worlds into One”.
This appears to be an expanded version of the original, roughly 20-minute video (nearly twice as long) which we saw back in April.
You’ll find the new video at the end of this post.
This one tells the story of the Weavers, Troyers, and Hochstetlers in greater depth.
That includes more on the children’s experience, excommunication, and struggles after they lost their businesses as a result of their faith decisions.
In the original post, I wondered if the first video might be intended as a recruiting film to show other Amish a pathway out of the church.
I think it’s most definitely something of that nature, and this new extended video seems to make that more clear.
That’s not a knock and also not surprising; the LDS church with its mission program is one of the most visibly-proselytizing churches in the American religious tapestry.
Amish vs Mormon
Here are eight things that jumped out at me in this latest video:
1. Life takes you to unexpected places – Raymond Weaver never saw himself as a candidate to leave the Amish church behind: “We were probably some of the last people you’d have expected to leave the church.”
Paul Hochstetler, on the other hand, self-describes as a rebel, and someone who was frequently balking at church rules.
2. Managed exit – The 3 families had to be careful to reveal their new membership at the right time. The Weavers continued attending Amish chuch after baptism in the LDS faith. Others refrained from telling their children.
The shock of excommunication and hardship of shunning would’ve doubtless compounded the difficulty of leaving. “We knew that if it got found out too early, the life we knew would end.”
3. “Pure” – The word “pure” is used at least twice in the film to describe the Amish. Maybe purity is a concept especially emphasized in the LDS church. It struck me as a bit strange. Over-idealizing?
4. Emotion – Like in the first film, many speakers here, both former Amish and original LDS – a half-dozen at least – are moved to tears when telling their stories. No doubt a powerful experience for all sides.
Although preachers in Amish church may become moved by emotion, you don’t typically see Amish giving this sort of moving emotional testimony about their faith journeys and convictions.
I think this free (encouraged in the LDS church?) avenue for emotional expression might be another attractive element for potential converts from the Amish.
5. The children were effectively “shunned” – Non-baptized Amish are not excommunicated and placed in the Bann (shunned). They can’t be excommunicated from a church they’ve never joined.
However what the children describe is effectively a type of “shunning”: their friends and cousins in the Amish are not permitted to play with them.
Sometimes you hear of situations where non baptized youth and children are described as having been shunned – this type of situation is probably what that refers to. It’s unofficial, but a painful change in behavior towards people – little people in this case – nonetheless.
6. Amishman interviewed – This video opens with an on-camera interview with an Ohio Amishman talking about strong points of Amish life and church. I wonder if he knew he’d end up in this film.
7. The more the merrier – The fact that three Amish families are involved made it easier. Little Martha Weaver explains how it would’ve been if the Troyers hadn’t joined: “Then we wouldn’t even have them to play with.” Her father Raymond affirms this.
8. Planting a seed for more Amish converts – As I mentioned above, this is an inspiring story no doubt for current LDS church members, and also a soft outreach vehicle to other potential Amish converts.
The messaging, especially towards the end, supports this: “It’s possible to leave the Amish faith and still be Amish if you want to” says one woman.
Another expresses a desire for more mission work among the Amish. They paint a picture of a “transition” period. LDS life is described as “simpler”, without so many rules.
One standout quote I noted in the original video – “I’ve always felt that if we could take the Amish culture, and the Latter-day Saint culture, and bring them together, it would be the perfect culture” – is repeated here.
More to come?
This video debuted less than a week ago, and so far has significantly fewer views – about a couple thousand, vs. over 100,000 views for the other – but the first has had a 6-month head start.
The Amish are among the least evangelical of American religious groups, for various reasons. Other churches are much more aggressive with their outreach.
In this case, a chance encounter and a well-placed Book of Mormon opened the door for three Amish families to change churches. Some churches, not just the LDS denomination, often do see the Amish as a potentially rich mission field.
Will we see similar videos in the months ahead telling of other Amish families joining the LDS church? Recently we revisited the story of the Ohio Seventh-Day Adventist church largely comprised of former Amish.
Perhaps we’ll see a similar dedicated congregation arise for formerly (though still “culturally”) Amish people who are now practicing Latter-day Saints?
Dear Miller,
I don’t know you, but bless you for your concern & prayers are sharing your faith on here. I join you in prayer that those ensnared by Mormonism may have their eyes and hearts opened and come to know Christ as their Lord and Saviour. He truly IS all we need! He always has been and always will be the One True God and without accepting His Son, Jesus Christ, everything else is in vain.
Blessings….
No, I am not trying to shut down the conversation. But the Book of Mormon has no relevance. I never said anything about the Holy Ghost. Tossing references to the Holy Ghost into the Book of Mormon doesn’t change anything. I most certainly DO believe in the Holy Ghost. When I was baptized in the Old Order Amish Church, I was baptized in the names of the Trinity — The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. I am well aware that the Christian world believes in the Holy Ghost, but it is interesting to read the Mormon world claims to as well.
Don't believe the "transparent" part!
Stephanie says the LDS church is open and transparent. Don’t fall for it! There is a lot of stuff in their temple rituals that they need to swear to never reveal and even promise to cut their own throats if they reveal the secret “signs” and all the “pay lay ale” mumbo-jumbo, fig-leaf apron, the secret veil and names and rituals, the secret “garments” — all the SECRECY. Look at how other Christians are with their beliefs and explanations! If someone is hiding a lot of stuff ask yourself if that group has the indicators for being a cult. The LDS meets many of those warning signs. I feel sorry for you Stephanie. you and many others like yourself have been so heavily indoctrinated you don’t see the danger you and your families are in!
These are important points to ponder! I agree that secrecy and Christianity do not mix. The thought of “secret rituals” and throat cutting, secret names and all that is very disturbing. I’m surprised your comment has not been challenged! I agree with the points you are making.
Unworthy Attacks
I don’t usually address attacking and contentious comments, but in this case, I will. Temple ceremonies are sacred. We don’t discuss them for the very reason that has been demonstrated here, that sacred things are often twisted into something sinister and drug through the mud, as was the conception of Jesus here just recently. It’s disgusting!
That is why we don’t discuss such things outside the temple. If you prefer to align yourself with vicious slander that is your business, but it does not make it true. Is such “brotherhood” really worth bearing a false witness? How would you feel if I told you I know more about your own religion and beliefs than you do? It’s ridiculous and very offensive!
So what part of “Only Me”‘s comments were “slander”? I don’t think anyone has been trying to tell you they know more about Mormonism than you do, but rather point out where Mormonism & Christianity do not agree. But I will stand by my comment that secrecy raises concerns.
Jesus told Nicodemus, “I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?” ~ John 3:12. In that same chapter Jesus teaches about the Holy Spirit, another doctrine the adversary also attacks.
As I’ve testified before, these influences aren’t just anti-Mormon, but anti-Christian: like there is no such thing as a witness from the Holy Ghost as “Miller from Canada” asserted, and an attack on the Holy Bible’s confirmation that Jesus was born of a virgin, and that Jesus taught against plural marriage, which would’ve made Abraham and Israel uninspired imposters.
Too easilly offended
Dear Stephanie, You don’t need to be so defensive, and so easily offended. Nobody here is anti-Mormon, just pro-Christ and His beautiful Word. You wrote that I said there is “no such thing as a witness from the Holy Ghost”. You are wrong. What I said was I have a clear witness from the Holy Ghost, after reading the Book of Mormon, that this work of fiction is NOT “another testimony of Jesus Christ.” I also have a clear witness of the Holy Ghost that polygamy is not a sanctioned New Testament or Christian practise. Even your own prophets, at least in this last century (and currently) that you’ll be excommunicated by the LDS if you practise it. My dear friend, you are just too touchy. The Truth aloe will set you free. You simply need to return to your own roots and you find true liberty in Christ Jesus. He is the only way to God.
Have you ever wondered why God(?) spoke in King James Version English in the 19th century, when King James English was no longer spoken anywhere, yet God dictated the Book of Mormon in King James English? PLEASE!!! Something is “off” here. The whole reigion is just “another gospel”. Believe anything you want, but don’t call error truth. It’s all very sad, but many of us are praying for you. Kindest personal regards.
Miller, you said this very well. I agree with you. You raised some very good points.
For Yoder from Ohio
I am also concerned that this dear lady has indicated that she has Anabaptist (Mennonite?) roots somewhere. I feel for her. She is really caught up in a spiritually dangerous cult and need to break loose. We must all pray for her. No need to go into all the false doctrines of Mormonism now, but the time is to pray earnestly for her and for those of our Anabaptist people who have been led astray. Mormonism is a different belief, a different religion. There is no way one could be Amish and Mormon. That’s like being Jehovah Witness and Seventh Day Adventist, a mixture that can’t exist. I always appreciate your comments. Yoder from Ohio, you speak Truth, and your lift up the name of Jesus Christ in a beautiful way. Personally, my people had their roots in the Amish of Pennsylvania (long ago), and as a youth (by choice) I became a part of a colony of the Hutterian Brethren in the Dakotas, and later a minister of an independent Hutterite-like colony in Canada. Our local congregation here, which is no longer fully communal, in the Hutterite sense, is made up of many former Hutterites and Mennonites and even a former Roman Catholic nun who left her convent and came to faith in Christ Jesus. May the Lord continue to bless you in your stand for Truth, in the Name of Jesus.
To Miller in Canada
Thank you for sharing your story and concerns, Miller. May the Lord also bless you in your walk and witness! I join you in your prayers.
The temple is full of symbolism, which is subject to individual interpretation. I’ve never sworn to hurt myself in any way, quite the contrary, and I’ve participated in every ordinance in the temple many times. Have you stopped to wonder why misrepresentations and misconstructions like those made by “Only Me” are anonymous?
Amish and Amish Mennonite Heritage
Please stop picking apart and maligning my beliefs as not Christian, and look to your own beliefs and thoughts. That’s what true Christians do, they look how to perfect their selves. I appreciate concern but not judgements.
My most notable Amish and Amish Mennonite roots are from my 8th Great Grandparents, who are Anna and Jacob Hochstetler, who were attacked in 1757 in Pennsylvania, in what’s known as the Amish Northkill Massacre. Their daughter, Barbara, is my ancestor; then Magdalena Stutzman, Barbara Yoder, Samuel Yoder & Elizabeth Lehman, Sarah Yoder, Elizabeth Mast, Barbara Christner, who is my Great Grandmother who died in Oregon. She was married to Noah Berkey, a grandson of Stephen Miller Berkey from Ohio. His mom was Catherine Miller from Pennsylvania.
Samuel Yoder’s wife Elizabeth Lehman had a Grandmother Elizabeth Mischler who was daughter of Joseph Mischler, and his father Hans Jacob Ulrich Mischler from Switzerland, some of whose descendants moved to Canada I believe.
I cannot and will not back down on that, Stephanie. There is no way I can view your beliefs as Christian. I know you see them as such, but I cannot step down on that. You keep insisting Mormonism is merely a branch of Christianity. It isn’t. I’m sad you see it as judgment, but really, you are maligning and misrepresenting my beliefs in this insistence we are “on the same page” as Christians. I do look at my own walk of faith and am very much aware of my weak points, my faults, and failures, but I will not allow one of my failures to be to stand aside silently while truth is distorted.
You’re a Hostetler descendant? Our family has Hostetler roots as well.
I understand, Yoder, let’s agree to disagree.
Yes, looks like we’re distant cousins 😀
It’s nice to “meet” you. Thank you for a very interesting discussion, even though we can’t agree. Please give my best to the family way back east.
Agreed to Disagree
It’s official — we are agreed to disagree. 🙂 I have often been amazed at how many Hochstetler/ Hostetler descendants there are! My wife is a direct descendant of Jacob, my ties are much more distant, but kin is kin. 😉
It’s been an interesting discussion indeed.
Jacob Hochstetler
It is amazing how many people are descended from Jacob Hochstetler. I am related through at least 9 different ways.
Marcus Yoder
Finding Ancestors, Amish & More
I found my Amish Ancestors and built a family tree on familysearch.org
If you’d like to learn how to begin building a family history tree on or offline, you can learn about it at: https://www.familysearch.org/blog/en/how-to-start-a-family-tree/
Free Pedigree Chart to print:
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/31384/31384_000_044_01-pedigree.pdf
Your "Amish" Roots...
Thank you Mrs. Berkey for sharing something about your Amish roots. How in the world did you end up getting involved with such an outrageous cult like the Mormons? How about sharing that part of your journey with us? You have a very interesting story. Thanks for being so open about it.
Thank you very much for your kindness, Miller from Canada. My father was raised Mennonite and my mother attended Christian churches on her own from a very young age. After they married, they were given a Book of Mormon before I was born and believes it is true (and still do), so I was born in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and have felt very blessed for all these things.
When I was about fourteen I started questioning all religion, and reading scriptures every day. I admit at times I did struggle with some parts of The Book of Mormon, but I also did with parts of the Holy Bible. Over the years and with prayer I was led to understanding through faith and by balancing the scriptures.
I have many Christian friends and have been made aware of their concerns many times, and can understand, but feel there are outside influences that I’ve seen not only attack my religion but basic Christianity and the Holy Bible (the same influences). Therefore, I’ve concluded these attacks to be as Jesus taught in the parable of the wheat and tares, “An enemy hath done this” ~ Matthew 13:28
I think the stage in life where you start questioning religion is an important one. If we just blindly follow a church just because it’s all we ever knew, it lacks “real faith.” I’m not sure if I’m making sense on that, I guess I’m trying to put into words what I heard preached in our church recently, that a person has to “claim Christ for one’s own Saviour, not just Mom and Dad’s handed-down Saviour.” As that was preached, my first thought was “But parents share their Saviour & faith with their children, don’t they?” but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made. I went through the stage of doubt, questioning, and (though I’m not proud of it now) being rather angry at God, as in “So why did THIS horrible thing happen? Or why did THAT tragedy occur?” But I came through that stage with a sense of faith and connection to God I had not had before. He became REAL to me in a way that I had not known before. It wasn’t the most pleasant or peaceful chapter of my life, but I now see it as an important one. A big difference between your experience, Stephanie, and mine was that though I read other books exploring aspects of faith, I recognize only the Bible as scripture. But there were still things in that that I struggled with, so I can completely identify.
Attacks by other groups? Oh sure, I have read and heard many against the Amish and some of those attacks are understandable and justified. Not all are fair or realistic, but I’m no stranger to them. I do understand you see your religion as part of Christianity and we are apparently never going to agree on that. Frankly, I see your insistence that your faith is Christian as an attack against Christianity and the passage from Matthew as most fitting, but we are just going to go back & forth endlessly on that the way this is going, because you see my views as an attack on Mormonism. And so it goes, back & forth, back & forth…
Is it time to move away from this discussion? I think we can all agree it’s been informative, but surely we don’t want this to drag on and on? Have we reached the point we “agree to disagree” and move on?
Either way, Stephanie, you and yours are in my prayers.
Yes, It's time to move on
Dear Yoder from Ohio, I think it’s time for us to all move on from this subject. The necessary points have been clearly made. May the Lord Jesus Christ be glorified, and many souls snatched from the flaming fires.
I like how you put this, Miller! I totally agree.
There was a book years ago by a Jewish guy who did a large study that showed that something like 95% of all religious people think their denomination is the only true religion. I cant recall the title, but anyways, like illusory superiority, it does not seem we could all be right on this at the same time. However, I did find a related book “American Grace: How Religion Divides and Unites Us” which is “based on two of the most comprehensive surveys ever conducted on religion and public life in America”. This one looks interesting too though “You Don’t Have to Be Wrong for Me to Be Right: Finding Faith Without Fanaticism Paperback”
On another topic – Is truth generally recognizable?
The more a particular faith is attacked, the more interesting I find it. Much like in the NT. It is as if truth is sometimes abhorrent and not interesting by the general masses, and the masses try to squash it. While it combines people in many ways, it also divides in many others. Of course, we cant say that because something is unpopular that it is necessarily good either, nor if something is popular that it is good or bad.
Second, I think whether you go by Bible or any common sense, the fruits of peoples behavior, on the whole, should be our metric for identifying good and health belief systems, and I lived around the country in an RV and saw many types of people, but I dont know of two religions that are more interesting on average on this regards than the Amish/Mennonite groups as well as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (a.k.a. Mormons). Both are inspiring. I think we should build both up, not tear down, criticize, insult, etc….
Finally, when the money runs out here in the states, and/or perhaps even as Christianity markets weakens as a whole, I bet ideologically differentiated Christians will act more united, esp. the caring ones segments of each, but until then, the debates will probably rage on.
Eran, you’ve made some excellent points. Thank you for your sharing these insights.
Christianity
Hmmm… actually I don’t agree that these were good points, after calmly reflecting. Down through history truth has been persecuted, but not by the masses, but by tyrants.
This is true for both the Amish and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I don’t appreciate other subtle suggestions either, like recommending a book with “finding faith without fanaticism” in it’s title, as if these two religions might qualify, along with the rest of Christians and The Holy Bible.
I do agree that we should build both groups up and that Christians will act more united under adversity, but to suggest “Christian markets” will weaken as a whole was put very cleverly and interestingly. Christian markets prosper. It is only when they turn away from Jesus, blatantly or otherwise, that they weaken.
I agree
There are some very good points in here! I love the idea of “You don’t have to be wrong for me to be right”!
God’s prophets don’t aren’t perfect, but are obedient to his will on acceptable levels. They have a right to their own opinion as well as expressing it, just not as God’s will. We believe a prophet speaks only for God “when moved upon by the Holy Ghost”, as indicated when all the 12 apostles also testify of it. We are expected to seek and obtain our own personal witness from God ourselves also as we nurture a personal relationship with Jesus through scripture study, prayer, obedience, and sacrifice (like fasting – just yesterday we fasted worldwide as a church for relief from COVID-19).
Today and tomorrow the prophet, President Nelson, and 12 apostles as well as other church leaders will be speaking to the world live from Salt Lake City. Usually there is an audience, but because of the current crisis that won’t be the case this time.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/?lang=eng
Monday the Queen will Speak
Monday the Queen will speak to the entire world. Her words will be more relevant than that of the so-called “Prophet” and “twelve apostles” from Salt Lake City. Don’t be deceived.
Miller from Canada,
“6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.
7 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.” ~ 1 Samuel 8:6-7
“We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
~ Articles of Faith, 4, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org
You forgot to mention polygamy....
In your list of principles you forgot to mention polygamy, and important doctrine of all true Mormons. Did you forget to mention it. Your founder, Smith, was a himself a polygamist, not to mention the old guy Brigham. Now nasty.
Not One of the First Principles of the Gospel
Do you believe in the Old Testament, that Abraham and Jacob were holy men of God? We believe God’s standard for marriage is usually monogamy. However, holy men of God did practice plural marriage in the Old Testament of the Holy Bible. We believe God has directed men to practice it, although rarely. He has His reasons. See Jacob 2:30
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/2.30?lang=eng&clang=eng#p29
Do you have any reservations concerning the first principles I shared?
Talk on sex by Elder Holland, who is now one of the Twelve Apostles:
Of Souls, Symbols, and Sacraments | Jeffrey R. Holland, Jan 1988
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5HYo2OMP2Q
Apostle????
And how did this guy become an “APOSTLE”???? I don’t think so. Is he one of those who “says he’s an apostle, but is not”? No witness on this one. No burning in the bosom.
I love you Miller from Canada. You’re just being stubborn…
Just being Scriptural
Thanks for your love, however, I am not being stubborn, just Biblical and Scriptural. Nothing less will do. Sorry, but your man made “apostle” just isn’t one.
Did you even hear and consider what he had to say though?
Encouragement with Overcoming Weaknesses ~ Elder Holland
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/04/tomorrow-the-lord-will-do-wonders-among-you?lang=eng
Remember this is Mormon
Stephanie, I think it would only be fair for you to mention that these items you are referring us to are MORMON, just so nobody will be misled. Most Anabaptists consider Mormonism to be a cult. Pretty decent people and nice neighbors, but still a cult. Not everybody knows the Mormon history of the Mormon belief in polygamy, which is still practised by fundamentalist Mormons. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is MORMON, and they accept the BOOK OF MORMON as holy scripture, which in reality is just a “different belief” or “another gospel”. Thank you for being upfront about this in the future.
The title of this thread at the top of every post is clear that it is “Mormon & Amish”, however, “Fundamentalist Mormons” are not part of this church, but are a rebellious break off of it. I have always been up front and will continue to be about my belief of The Book of Mormon being another testament of Jesus Christ.
Jesus personally taught the Native Americans, “therefore ye shall call the church in my name; and ye shall call upon the Father in my name” ~ 3 Nephi 27:7, Book of Mormon. Those who continue to insist this church is not Christian are the ones doing the misleading.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Fundamentalist Mormons are the Old Order of the Joseph Smith movement
Fundamentalist Mormons are very much Mormons, followers of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. In the Anabaptist movement we have groups that are “Old Order”, “New Order”, “Independent” or “Non-Conference”, “liberals” and “conservatives”. Fundamentalist Mormons are the “Old Order” of the Mormon movement, simply trying to be faithful to the kind of Mormonism taught and practised by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young etc. They are also polygamous just like Smith, Young etc. They are following the old ways, and are very much Mormon, and identify themselves as such. If you want to know what Mormonism was like in the time of your grandparents, the fundamentalists demonstrate it clearly. They are the “Old Order” of the Mormon religion. Pointing this out is not hate. It is reality. The Fundamentalist LDS Mormons are the “orthodox” of the
Mormonists. They would make Joseph Smith proud, and probably Brigham Young, too…one of the biggest polygamists of them all.
Fundamentalists are excommunicated and are acting the Jews who refused to believe in Jesus and clung to the Law of Moses (some of whom not only rejected Christ and his message, but crucified Him). I don’t think that’s the same as the difference between Amish & Mennonite.
This thread has really opened my eyes! I used to see Mormons as a sub-group of Christianity but you have helped me see why so many know it to be a cult! I am so offended at this last post. So because the FLDS clung to the original teachings of your group, they are excommunicated and the Jews are to be considered on the same footing? So who did the FLDS reject? Jesus? One of the so-called prophets? No answer needed. Done with this.
Kate, we’re all subject to rejecting God’s will at any time if we aren’t careful. FLDS and the Jews clung more to their own will and wisdom. His will isn’t always what we’d like. As we draw near unto Him, He will draw near unto us with personal revelation through prayer and scripture study. We all have the opportunity to repent quickly at any time when we fail, thankfully.
Fundamentalist Mormons are the "Real Thing"
Are you suggesting that possibly the Salt Lake LDS group has missed the way and need to return to the faith of their fathers. The Fundamentalist LATTER DAY SAINTS (FLDS)are simply Old Order Mormonites who are following the faith of your founders, namely people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. The Salt Lake LDS Mormonite group have departed from the original Mormonist doctrine in several ways, but the Old Order FLDS are following the old ways very carefully. Personally, they are both wrong, just like the l00 or so other Mormon offshoots, but one does in a strange sort of way have to admire the steadfastness of the old order FLDS group for being faithful to the doctrine of the LDS founders, including plural marriage (which you also try to defend as being scriptural, which is simply not the Christian doctrine. For example, a leader must be “the husband of ONE wife”. That, of course, leaves out men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the biggest polygamist of them all. The Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints group(s) are the Old Order of the Mormonist movement. Most of them never belonged to the Salt Lake Mormon/LDS group, and could not have been EXCOMMUNICATED from something they never belonged to. They simply continued on in the old ways of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. There are a few among them who once belonged to the Salt Lake LDS group, but they are a tiny minority.
This church was founded on, and is a living church, led by a living God with continued revelation. Those who reject that, never knew Him (Jesus Christ).
I testified to plural marriage as being practiced by Abraham and Jacob in the Holy Bible, as well as a few others in these latter days, and as I’ve already discussed in depth on both pages of this discussion thread: rarely done as directed by God.
I’m referring here to the FLDS, who cling to plural marriage after revelation was given to President Wilford Woodruff in 1890 to stop it. FLDS is the very antithesis of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whatever they may claim.
We recently discussed anti-Christian influences on another thread, how it consists of using the name of God for selfishness. Looking at the fruits and spirit of the FLDS religion, it is a prime example. Lacking faith in Jesus is one thing, but fighting against Him by attempting to hijack then corrupt His chosen leadership is another. It indicates they never knew the God that founded the church they now claim to lead.
Kate, in addition to my previous answer, Jesus can help us unite our will with His as we sincerely ask it of Him, can change our hearts and make our weaknesses to become strengths.
Fundamentalist Mormons are the Old Order of Mormonism
I am firmly convinced as a born-again Christian that our Lord Jesus Christ rejects The Book of Mormon, and does not accept it as “Another Testament of Jesus Christ” as the Joseph Smith-ites would have us believe. It’s fiction, and not very well written either.
You can argue all you want, BUT the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of LATTER DAY SAINTS (FLDS) simply follows the original teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They are simply Old Order Mormons or if you prefer OLD ORDER LDS. Many people do not realize there are actually many Mormon denominations, of which the FLDS are the Old Order, and likely the closest to what Joseph Smith had in mind when he founded his new religion.
Excellent points, Miller! Amen!
My intention isn’t to argue, but simply to stand up for and offer the truth regarding The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to those who may be interested.
I’m not surprised at your reaction. That stubborn Swiss streak can be a weakness, or a strength.
View from the prairie
Hi. I do not come here normally to comment. I am too busy. Some things to note. Many of my ancestry had co-mingled with anabaptist churches and a group of some kind of Mormons or another. When a group of what I might call lost mormons and some prairieleut looking for a place came together, lucky the anabaptist teachings eventually over came the mormons teachings.
Read about Alpheus Cutler who himself had a family history in a low german anabaptist church. He became a mormon in Illinois or Ohio. I do not remember which. When the mormons decided to move to Utah to build their kingdom, Alpheus Cutler took some unhappy mormons with him to SW minnesota where many Hutterites had tried to settle. Most were non communal prairieleut, Cutler also encountered many Mennonites.
Cutler either convinced some of these brethren to join the mormon church or even they just saw fit to start a community in the place he was going and followed him to a small colony just west of Wadena MN. Apparently the Hutterian views of Acts chapter 2 and the mormons united order went along alright in their colony.
Eventually most of the people rejoined the Hutterites or Mennonites, a small group married some newly arriving Amish to the area. Those that wanted to stay mormon join a more Trinity believing mormon church, which has a title sounding much like an anabaptist name “Community of Christ.” That church is Christian however they refuse to give up the Book of Mormon… it is loosely used, not considered doctrine.
I have many of my earlier relatives in that church. My relatives were mennonites and some non communal hutterites that got brought with Cutler on his journey.
There are many Whitings, Wittmers, Hofers, Hoefers, etc in this area to this day. Many of the people married into the Stutzmans and the Swartzentrubers.
I pray these brothers and sisters take what good they see in the mormon church, and like my family slowly return to a good anabaptist bible believing church.
Hanse, thank you for sharing your story. That’s all very interesting. Best regards to you all in that area. So, is David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, is one of your ancestors?
~ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/three?lang=eng
Whitmer
No. Whitmer is a very common name in the Mennonite Tradition and other Anabaptist traditions.
Essentially it did not take long for my family who was mostly non communal hutterites and the mennonites that moved to this area around the time of the “Cutlerites,” to have the Book of Mormon voted out. At the point most of the people either embraced being Mennonite, found a Hutterite Colony and followed the Schmiedeleut Hutterian Tradition, or married into the newly arriving Amish.
You see, the Book of Mormon or as we say here Das Buch Mormon is a work of fiction. Cutler was very unsuccessful in converting the few anabaptist people (my family included) into Mormonism. But the common beliefs at the time of what in english is refered to as “gather communityism” is still at the heart of most conservative anabaptist beliefs.
So with that being said, a few basic beliefs did over lap. What I can only imagine had occured, was that the anabaptist people were inconvinced by the Book of Mormon, polygamy, these temple rituals (which if you read the old testament or talk to a jew are NOT old testament practices).
I am not sure of your intentions. But I would say that myself, and the other Anabaptist brethren that have commented are unconvinced. I would even credit your Chrurch as being Christian “with another book,” up until they left Ohio. The Community of Christ is a Trinitarian Christian Church though very liberal.
The Mormon Church is not. It ceased being anything Christian once Brigham took over. When you say you “believe in Christ” that makes you a Christian… you miss the mark. Just like someone believing in Santa Claus does not diefy Santa.
Then there are the deeper doctrines of long lines of gods, these gods all having wives. This is not only not compatible with the bible, it actually counters the bible.
Mormons get so upset by this. But it is true. Your religion is not a Christian religion. It is a religion where Christ plays a role. But that is about it.
So, fortunately, the Cutlerites left the area, and the good Christ-believing Anabaptist people returned to a pure Anabaptist Church.
But my point is that 140 years ago there was a unique co-mingling of the two.
These folks are not “Amish Mormons” but rather, Mormons living “Like Amish.”
David Whitmer never denounced his testimony regarding the Book of Mormon, none of the three witnesses did. This is the reason I asked you if he was a relative of yours, since you mentioned they didn’t want to give up belief in it, although clearly you have. My intentions, as I’ve stated before is to bear witness of the truth.
I testify that giving up our sins to know and follow Christ is what makes us Christian. We do that in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We all have different points of view and that’s OK, but it’s not OK to bear false witness.
It’s tragic how a people that has been so persecuted can do it to others so easily and so much. You aren’t my judge so you don’t know how close I am to my Savior and Redeemer. He is the only judge. I’m satisfied He knows I believe in and follow Him, and fully appreciates such false accusations and slander any go through to bear witness of the fullness of His gospel.
You don’t want to believe it, that’s your choice. But on judgement day you will have no excuse, because my testimony will be there. You think you can interpret the meat of our doctrine when you can’t even get the milk of basic Christianity right? Please. True Anabaptists in my opinion would never judge so rashly, but I could be wrong about that.
Those who judge rashly shall be judged rashly, by men and God.
Google Search
It appears after some google. You had some Mormon named David Whitmer. He has no relation to the small group of Mennonites from South West Minnesota that followed Cutler to my area.
Also. I stated SOME did not want to hive up the Book of Mormon. They left and started their own kind of Mormon Church called Community of Christ.
"Eyewitness" Left the Mormon Church
No doubt you are aware that David Whitmer, who claimed to have seen the metal plates from which the Book of Mormon was supposedly
translated, and was a major leader of the LDS religion, actually left the church and formed a rival Mormonist religion. He denounced polygamy as something “evil”.
David Whitmer never denounced his testimony regarding the Book of Mormon, none of the three witnesses did.
David Whitmer
Perhaps you are confused. I said nothing of any David Whitmer. We have Whitmer names in the Hutterite, but more so in the Mennonite background. Was someone named David? likely. But I do not know of a specific David Whitmer. I have born no “false witness” to you. By the turn of the 1900s ALL of those that stayed in my region had all returned to some Anabaptist Church. Mostly Mennonite or Amish. Some to a Schmiedeleut Colony.
I do not know why it is you rail against me, for born false witness. I said the people that still believed the Book of Mormon, left the area eventually. That very few that followed Cutler up to this area really “embraced it.”
So. To be clear. I am not aware of anyone named David Whitmer specifically. But Whitmer is a VERY common name in many Anabaptist Traditions. So Do I have relatives named Whitmer? Yes. Do I know of any named “David” specifically. That I am unable to determine. I am related to Amos Whitmer, Mahlon Whitmer, Daniel Whitmer, Michael Whitmer.
But to clarify further. By getting aggressive, you will only cause contention.
I hope that clears up things. I see other people here from Anabaptist backgrounds. We do not allow the words of God. The Holy Scriptures to be mocked or trampled.
Please do not make assumptions.
The Book of Mormon persuades men to believe in and follow Jesus Christ, to give up their sins, and serve one another as He did. It is a false witness to say that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not Christian, for both it and the Book of Mormon persuade men to believe in and follow Him, as the cornerstone of our religion and main focus.
Jesus taught, If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” ~ John 7:17 It takes faith to do his will to then receive a witness from Him that is it of Him. Have you prayerfully read the Book of Mormon with an open mind and with faith in God’s will?
As far as temple covenants, the Old Testament reads, ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers…” ~ Jeremiah 31:31-32
PLEASE STOP!
Please stop equating Mormonism with Christianity!! It’s incredibly offensive!
Mormonists are a "Different Belief"
To DF: You are absolutely right that Mormonism is not a Christian denomination (or as the Amish would say)”a different belief”. Most born again believers do NOT consider it to be a Christian organization, but another religion. Many consider it to be a cult.
Mormonism is a very divided movement, consisting of many sects and many “prophets” and so-called “apostles”. The Salt Lake City LDS are the largest of the groups. There are many others, and they are divided in their beliefs, and most do not recognize each other as “real” Mormons. What a mess. They include everything from the old order group (FLDS – Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints) which is probably the most authentic of them all, following the original teachings of the “prophet” Joseph Smith, including polygamy, and consider the Book of Mormon “another testament of Jesus Christ”. (The book is poorly written and considered to be fiction by many.) The Salt Lake LDS group seems to try to follow the teachings of Smith and their multitude of prophets and apostles, but they have seemingly modernized (some would say changed) many of the teachings, which was probably a smart thing to do. They are generally good living folk. There are so many other breakaways and off-shoots from everything to FLDS, the Salt Lake LDS, the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (RLDS) currently calling themselves “Community of Christ”, and scores of other Mormonist churches (polygamist and non-polygamist) who all claim to be the REAL thing. What a mess. So confusing. And, of course, they all have their own “prophets” and “apostles”, Too many Mormonist groups and too many “prophets”. Whew! Somebody has to be “bearing false witness”.
Amen!
Amen, Miller, Amen!
As a Christian, it hurts me to read all these appalling twists of false witness in an attempt to justify Mormonism and am offended at the temerity to label it “Christian”! I bear the poster no ill will but pray that she may come to know true Christianity and Christ!
So, your determination of truth is NOT based on if it persuades men to believe Christ and serve Him, but rather if it is not offensive to the majority and if they agree to accept it as truth. What if the majority is deceived? That is truth according to man, not God.
When He was on the earth, the majority found Him offensive. That’s how and why they crucified Him. He addressed this issue in these teachings, “How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?” ~ John 5:44, The Holy Bible
Don't distort
I’m all FOR following Christ — I have given my LIFE to that endeavor, but you are perverting true Christianity. It’s so very sad!
If you are for Christ, then why can’t you admit that anything which persuades us to believe and serve Him is of Him?
I serve Christ
I don’t serve your false prophets or buy into your cult teachings.
This principle of judging by looking at the fruits is biblical and existed before The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was restored. I think that you can’t admit it as a true principle because fear and superstition, which has been instilled with false witnesses. This is why it is one of the ten most basic laws, The Ten Commandments, to not bear a false witness (Exodus 20:16, The Holy Bible).
She needs our prayers to be set free from the bondage of Mormonist religion.
This lady has been around a long time. She claims to be speaking truth, but biblically she is off the rails. I’m sure she is a nice person, and probably sincere, but her Book of Mormon religion is a false gospel. Hence she is bearing false witness. She doesn’t seem to comprehend that there are FALSE gospels, FALSE doctrines, FALSE prophets, FALSE religions, FALSE teachers and FALSE Christs, and they are many. Some even rely on man made books, such as the fictional Book of Mormon, and call them holy scriptures. That alone testifies and witnesses that those who believe such fairy tales are deceived. Only the discernment of the Holy Spirit can cause us to know the difference between truth and error. She says she isn’t doing it, but it appears as if she is desiring to sow discord in the Anabaptist camp. Is this lady a born again Christian, is she saved? She does not speak of such fundamental or basic doctrines. Does she believe in the Trinity? Her religion certainly doesn’t.
She has every right to believe whatever she wants to believe, and follow any religion she wants to. That’s the Constitution. No one here is anti-Mormon or anti-Joseph Smith, but PRO Jesus. He desires that all of them be saved, too. She’s deep into it, well indoctrinated, but it’s obvious she’s not 100% convinced, and seems to be questioning at least some of it. Some here seem to think we shouldn’t even talk with her, but I think she needs to be challenged with a prayerful approach, with the sincere hope that her eyes will be opened and she will return to the faith of her fathers, and truly be born anew. No one here hates her or her religion. They simply love the Truth, and His name is Jesus. The true and the Living Word, the real Word of God, will set her free and give her the personal assurance of being a child of God. Many are praying for her by name. They won’t stop until she is truly set free.
Amen!
Miller, you have made some very powerful statements here and I wholeheartedly agree. I do not hate this woman and I shall continue praying for her by name that her eyes may be opened and that she may come out of the bondage of the cult she is enmeshed in and come to true faith and repentance through Christ.
“Witnesses”
Hallo Bruder,
I see you have anabaptist background too.
I also see that this “Stephanie,” is very confused. By the way of the information about where I live. My family is and came from some different anabaptist traditions originally in SW Minnesota. But followed a crazy man, Alpheus Cutler, to North Central Minnesota. Where they tried to live together with he and his church followers. At the time, from family stories, he was an otherwise Christian man. But had an obsession with the Book of Mormon.
What eventually caused the small community was that by just prior to 1900 most the the anabaptist people were established enough, and had come to their senses that they had a split from anyone that refused to submit to God’s will.
So a small faction started another Mormon church and all the anabaptists went to other anabaptist churches.
It would seem Stephanie is confused. I see by google there was some man named David Whitmer. Well. That is a very common name in most anabaptist churches. So. It is possible that either that David Whitmer or another one eventually rejected the Book of Mormon, or the Mormon Church completely and rejoined what I would assume some Mennonite Fellowship or Conference.
As I also see, many of those early folks did leave the Mormon Church.
I will contend, there are a lot of good books out there. But I sure don’t put my salvation in any of them, save the Bible. Maybe the Book of Mormon mentions Jesus. So do a lot of books, none enough to show a man to heaven.
Do you agree that the way to discern truth from error is asked, “Does it persuade men to believe and follow Jesus Christ?” If it does, it is of Him, is it not?
Do you want to believe things because the majority does? What happens when the majority turns against you? If I’m off the rails, please use the Bible to cite where. I believe in and quote The Holy Bible and its principles.
Is anyone out there really interested in finding truth the way Jesus taught, through correct principles? The Holy Ghost does play a part in determining truth, that is one true principle, but with us also using other true principles, like to use the brain God gave us to learn to make good judgements, as our Father in Heaven does, as Jesus does. Powerful negative emotions can block our hearing the Holy Ghost correctly. The “temerity” is refusing to use true principles, yet asset to know my religion better than I do through fear, gossip, and superstition.
The Holy Bible bears a witness of the Book of Mormon in Ezekiel 37:16-19 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/ezek/37.16,19?lang=eng&clang=eng#p16,19
I am 100% convinced that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true, and the only church on the earth that contains the fullness of His gospel. I constantly have questions every day, and bring them before the Lord in prayer and scripture study. Apparently, some people WISH I didn’t, but they are free to do the same.
Thank you to anyone for prayers in my direction. I certainly can use them. I’m praying for you all too, and love you very much.
The "majority" has nothing to do with it
Your faith is based on fiction and cult-like manipulations. I am not at all concerned about “the majority” but rather how I personally stand with my Lord & Saviour and what matches true scripture.
The Holy Bible most certainly does NOT “bear witness to the book of Mormon” other than the warnings against false teaching and false prophets.
I know you are 100% convinced the Mormon church is a Christian church and that breaks my heart. I will continue to pray that you may have your eyes and heart opened.
You say it has nothing to do with the majority, but go along with the majority that this church is not Christian. Do you believe I am not Christian?
Are you a Christian?
You asked if we think you are a “Christian”? Probably an appropriate response would be: Are you born-again?
So, in your opinion only “born again”-ers are Christian? :/
Nothing to do with majority!
This has nothing to do with majority! If everyone else here posted pro-Mormon or if the majority in the world felt the Mormon church was Christian, I would still stand behind my statements. The Mormon church is not Christian. No if’s, and’s, or but’s. I have read the comments on here — ample evidence has been brought forth about the cult-like teachings the Mormon church uses.
DF and Miller, when I’m speaking of the majority it’s because Miller said the majority doesn’t see this church as Christian. DF, you brought up how you found the doctrines offensive. Those reasons are not based on Biblical principles.
Your definition of Christianity was formed in the dark ages when people didn’t have copies of the Holy Bible to ponder and pray over, had forced interpretations and coerced infants baptisms. Are you going to let those same influences continue to dictate to you today what Christianity is? God said, Let US make man in OUR own likeness… male and FEMALE. ~ Genesis 1:26-27
Believe?
Stephanie. I do not believe because I am told. As I said I grew up in a very small closed christian community. It was after I left and was witnessed to many years later by Brother Wurtz that I truly immersed myself deep into a relationship with Jesus Christ.
Yes. My community over 100 years ago was touched briefly by a man that carried a type of mormon belief to that community. Yes they believe many good things. It is not necessary to be defensive. But in the end, after that community, many generations ago said we will either stand on the word of God, or those that do not should find other places to worship.
The Book of Mormon is not the word of God. I will admit after reading it, there are many nice things in it. Especially 3RD Nephi when Christ blesses the little children. But it is a made up story! I find beauty in many fictional stories. But you can not gain salvation through the Book of Mormon!
I have spoken to many Jews. In detail. Your “temple” has been a topic of conversation. The Jews do not now, nor have they ever practiced those kinds of worship there. It is made up by Smith.
We did not exist in a pre-birth spirit state, God is not married. God did not inherit earth by being virtuous. God does not have parents. God does not have a wife or wives.
Your church teaches that God, Jesus, Holy Spirit are all three seperate beings. But even the Book of Mormon mentions the triune God multiple times!
When people point out a flaw or an inconsistency it is not to “bash” you, but to gently point you in the correct direction. It is genuinely out of a Christian love for you, dear Sister.
I love Miller’s posts. He is far more articulate then I ever will be. Mormonism has its roots in Christology. Absolutely. But it is not a Christian system of beliefs.
Thank you Hanse! I love that story of Jesus blessing the children when He visited America. I’m sorry you don’t believe it’s real. I appreciate your kind words so much, as my brother in Christ, and hope we can agree to disagree as well as appreciate similar and different points of view. I find yours and others on here very interesting.
As far as temple covenants not being what the Jews had, I replied to your comments previously, and wondered what you thought of Jeremiah 31:31-32 regarding it. Thank you again, and God bless you Brother.
Jeremiah 31:31-32
Yes. I know this scripture. To me it is a prophecy of the New Law of Christ. Not a new Temple ritual. So it is a prophecy of the fulfillment of the Old Law and the ushering in of the New Law. The New Covenant between Christ and his believers.
As previously mentioned. The exposure I have to Mormons is what the Cutlerites moved on to establish here that became a church called RLDS now called “Community of Christ.”. They gave me a Book of Mormon. As I said. I will not say it is “evil.”. Like some here. But it is also not scripture.
So it is likely a different Mormon Church than what you have. But the book is the same.
What I have gathered from my independent interest in studying local history was just that some Mormons briefly mingled with and helped some of my anabaptist ancestors get established. There was a fued. The Mormons moved to the next village. There are many virtuous people that are not Christian. They are still otherwise “good people.”
I will not debate whether or not YOU are a Christian. A person is either a Christian or not. The name on a building doesn’t save you. But it is concerning if you believe in the list of things I mentioned like many gods. God has parents. God has a wife or many wives. The temple rituals. Those are not part of Christian theology.
But again. Your relationship with God is yours to cultivate. Not mine.
I pray that you are a Christian. But as far as the Prophet Jerrmiah goes; he was speaking about the New Law/New Covenant under Christ. Not about new temple rituals.
I can see that as a valid interpretation. Other things are mentioned in this chapter that bring to mind the temple, in verse 23… “The Lord bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.” The new and higher law that Jesus gave us in the New Testament is at the heart of temple worship.
Temple?
Well. I will say, neither of us will convince or convert one another. You will likely never join an anabaptist church hutterite mennonite or amish. I will not join a mormon chuch LDS Community of Christ or FLDS. So We can just agree to disagree. I with humility stand by my beliefs that many of the issues I have mentioned, that you have over looked or ignored, put Mormons outside the circle of Christianity. Ultimately the responsibility falls on your shoulders as to whether or not you are a Christian. Only God knows for sure. But this is where I thank you for the interesting discussion and go back to milking my cows and spraying the fields.
From our little community in west central minnesota, your hutterian and amish brethren and sisters will be praying you have good health and blessings from heaven.
Hanse
Book of Mormon IS mentioned in the Bible.
I recently heard a conservative Anabaptist preacher say that “Joseph Smith and his Book of Mormon are clearly mentioned in the Bible…”
“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues of this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” (Rev. 22:18-19 KJV)
“If any man shall add unto these things
Miller, I love your testimony
Brother Miller,
I love your testimony. You have boldness in humility! I enjoy the way you witness to this Sister. You show much love and patience.
The Mormon Church seems to be like a two sided sign. On one side it points to itself being a Christian Church. But on the other side not so much. I for many reasons pray that if an Amish brother decides to leave the Amish, they find a colony or a conservative Mennonite Fellowship. Most of all I pray they stay close to the Bibel and its teachings.
So many of the churches like Mormon, Jehova Witness, 7 Day Advent, Church of Scientist, Church of God, all seek people that are unhappy with high hopes and false promises. I have read the Book of Mormon. It is a nice story. But Time Magazine has nice stories too. It does not mean one can gain salvation that way.
I pray this sister doesn’t find us anabaptist people that subscribe to this publication to be attacking her. But to be gently guiding her in a direction towards a real relationship with the real Christ of the bibel.
I appreciate your steadfastness in Christ brother.
AMEN!!!
And it is this “adding to and taking away” that fills my heart with sorrow for those deceived by false prophets and false teachings.
A very similar scripture is found at the end of the Old Testament, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.” ~ Deuteronomy 4:2. If these meant what you are proposing, wouldn’t that also exclude the New Testament?
Infant Baptism is an Abomination
“…the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them…” ~ Moroni 8:8, Book of Mormon
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/moro/8?lang=eng
Anabaptists Don't Baptise Infants
You seem to be confused about something. Anabaptists do NOT baptise infants. Anabaptists baptise BELIEVERS ONLY. Are you a believer? If so, when were you “born again”. If you haven’t experienced the New Birth you are simply following religious “principles”. Believers don’t follow principles, they follow our Lord Jesus Christ. Principles follow them. Otherwise one is simply putting the cart before the horse. No more man made religion for the believers. Follow HIM. HE is the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE. Outside of HIM there is no salvation. Many religious people call him “Lord, Lord”, but He doesn’t know them. Until one is born again, they are still in darkness, even if they follow religious principles. We don’t work to be saved. Works follow those who believe.
I know Anabaptist don’t believe in infant baptism, that’s why I posted how some Native Americans didn’t either. Anabaptist ancestors wouldn’t believe it, when most everyone else was persuaded or coerced into it.
I believe salvation is a free gift from Jesus Christ. I was born again when I was baptized at eight years old. I believed in Him then, and accepted Him into my heart, just as I do now. What do you believe must be done to be born again?
Jesus also requires us to govern ourselves with correct principles, which He teaches by example and instruction. Some Biblical principles include faith, hope, charity, sincere prayer, study, and sacrifices like forgiving and repenting. Blessings are given through obedience to laws upon which they are predicated.
What do you think He meant when He taught this? “Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” ~ John 8:32
We allow little children to take the sacrament when they express a desire to, so in that sense we ask Jesus into our heart even before the age of eight. The words of our sacrament prayer, which we as a congregation pray along with includes, “…that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember Him and keep His commandments which he has given them; that they may always have His Spirit to be with them…” These reflect the covenants we make at baptism.
A blessing can be obtained by us not by our own sacrifice, but by someone else, like in the case of Jesus providing for our salvation. Another example is how our ancestors sacrificed for us to live in America and be free to worship how we choose. Jacob and Anna Hochstetler and their children did that for us.
A German Speaking Apostle
Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf (12:20)
He Will Place You on His Shoulders and Carry You Home
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2016/04/he-will-place-you-on-his-shoulders-and-carry-you-home?lang=eng
A Mother’s Hope & Prayer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ssHhzi7alI
Im Gespräch Interview with Dieter F. Uchtdorf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyD4wQEOR-c
Im amazed to see such mean spirited comments from people who claim to believe in Jesus, Our Savior, and Redeemer.
Yes, I’m a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I’ve studied the Amish religion for quite awhile.
You say that we’re a cult, yet we’re allowed to have phones in our houses, communicate with family that has left the church, the list goes on…. Oh, and isn’t it the Schwartzentuber Amish that don’t even allow Rumspringa? But yet, we’re the ones who are brainwashed.
Lets look at some similarities, shall we? 1) The LDS people, like the Amish, believe in being in the world, but not of the world. We just have different ways of expressing it.
2) LDS people believe in hard work, and service to others. Again this is how I believe most Amish live, is it not?
3) Both, like many other Christian denominations believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord, and Savior,and its HIS example that we should follow.
Yes, in the Bible it does say that you dont add on to that book. Hate to educate you on this but the Book Of Mormon is a standalone. Yes, we in the “cult” church believe in studying the two together as they both testify of the things our Father would have us know.
But didn’t Jesus say in the New Testament,’other sheep I have which are not of this fold’. So yep, it completely contradicts the Bible that he also came to the Americas doesn’t it? And of course, when the Savior visits, you expect no one to jot that down? Especially in a record that has been handed down from prophet to prophet? Wouldnt that just be ridiculous – writing about the Savior in a religious tome – the absurdity of it all!
I would strongly recommend btw, checking out videos on YouTube about the “Mound people”. The mounds are a real thing. You can visit the real deal in AL. And their stories, and histories as uncovered by actual archeologists, and anthropologists are very close. Closer then an uneducated farm boy from upstate New York would be aware.
I understand I won’t change your opinion, nor do I care to, but I will say in closing that any prayers that I “see the light” are completely wasted on me. I am a better version of myself because I believe in the Church, and its teachings. And thats all our Father asks, is that we be the best people we can be. Of course if self righteous is that for you, you do you.
Covid-19 & Religious Liberty
Thank you for your post Ang.
Have you seen this new message from Elder Bednar? He’s talking about religious liberty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGU7GG5t6Ek
As specific as the travel routes and destinations were outlined in the NT, surely a voyage or mission to the “new world” would have been mentioned specifically. It seems a very vague association.
I stand firm on my ground and convictions: You cannot have Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and still buy in to the false-teachings Stephanie has presented to us.
You may snidely call that self-righteous if you wish.
“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be cone fold, and one shepherd.” ~ Jesus Christ, John 10:16, The Holy Bible https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/john/10.16?lang=eng&clang=eng#p16
“And behold, it is wisdom that this land should be kept as yet from the knowledge of other nations; for behold, many nations would overrun the land, that there would be no place for an inheritance.” ~ 2 Nephi 1:8, Book of Mormon https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/1.8?lang=eng&clang=eng#p8
The text from the actual Bible does not in any way mention North America.
The other text is from a false gospel and in no way relates to Christianity.
Who do you believe Jesus was referring to?
Why do you think it means people in the western hemisphere?
I think Jesus meant those in the western hemisphere because of these scriptures:
“17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear;
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.” ~ Romans 17-21
We believe the Native Americans are a branch of the house of Israel, that God broke off branches of Israel and scattered them with the intent to gather them back again.
“17 That they might not be hardened against the word, that they might not be unbelieving, and go on to destruction, but that they might receive the word with joy, and as a branch be grafted into the true vine, that they might enter into the rest of the Lord their God.” ~ Alma 16:17, Book of Mormon
But WHERE is there ANYTHING in those passages that even remotely HINT at that possibility?! I’m not even going to bother with “the book of Alma” because we know it to be outside of scripture (a stand alone book, as one of your fellow Mormons called it) and therefore totally irrelevant to this discussion. But where…. where is there ANYTHING to suggest North America?!
God keeps some things hidden, especially for those who would rather not know. For those who might be interested, there’s more about the “other sheep” and the scattering and gathering of Israel in Jacob 5-6, Book of Mormon https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/jacob/5?lang=eng
So…. God revealed this how? To who? Right back to false prophets. You have also completely avoided my question about what in those passages could even hint at North America!
I don’t know why you keep bringing the book of Mormon into this — I’m a Christian and rely on The Holy Scriptures.
DF, you ask how it was revealed and to whom. I’m sharing what I feel God has revealed to me personally. It doesn’t seem like you want to discuss it, but if you do, what hints at it to me is that firstly Jesus spoke of other sheep and there is none other that we know of. Secondly, the Book of Mormon gives a good explanation. This video illustrates how I use it and why, Why Do I Need the Book of Mormon If I Already Have the Bible? By Ted R. Callister. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujCSyiZwQ9Q
I understand DF and Miller from Canada, that you don’t see The Book of Mormon as scripture, but some of us on here do, and it is a crucial part of our beliefs, so when I explain my view point of course I refer to it.
Mormonite Book is not Holy Scripture
Stephany, you sure seem to like to quote from Joey (Joseph) Smith’s book of religious fiction, the Book of Mormon, a lot. There are many religious novels that are far better written, of course, but none are Holy Scripture, including Joey’s (Joseph Smith) fictional work. Have you ever wondered why he wrote it (or “translated it) into King James version English, rather than the English spoken in the time of Smith? Something is “off” right there. If one (under inspiration) was translating New Egyptian directly into the English of the eighteen hundreds it WOULDN’T BE KING JAMES VERSION, that’s for sure. Yes, the Holy Bible was translated into “King James Version”, but that was the English spoken at the time it was translated, in the 15 hundreds. King James Version English was NOT spoken hundreds of years later at the time the so-called Book of Mormon was translated into English. Give me a break!!!
Other Sheep
With all due respect, dear Stephanie, you are obviously here (along with one of your friends) to convert Amish and other Anabaptists to Joey Smith’s brand of Mormonism. Perhaps the Amish are the “other sheep” our Lord is speaking of??? Your propaganda doesn’t seem to be getting any new converts for you (from the Amish-Mennonite-Hutterite fold). You are simply exposing the man made doctrines of Mormonite ism to total rejection. It’d another gospel, a different belief, a man invented religion. Anabaptist Christians base their faith in the Word of God, trusting in Jesus only for their salvation, totally rejecting the man made prophets and their spurious teachings and new revelations. They reject polygamy, baptize only born again believers, and certainly do not give the holy communion to little kids, and believe it or not but Anabaptists do not serve bread and water in the communion (as Smithite Mormonists do), but actually do as Jesus taught, serving bread and wine.
You may mean well, but many of us are on to you, and firmly believe your objective is to turn people away from the Anabaptist doctrine and turn them into Mormon-ites. You can believe what you want to, but you might be looking for converts in the wrong place.
I come here to share and learn from others I care about and admire, and bear witness to the truth on many topics. I find other views interesting, especially the Amish and Mennonites because it is part of my heritage.
If it was the Amish who Jesus was referring to, where were they at that time in history?
Amish might be the Lost tribe????
Dear Steph, Can’t you get the joke? Your scripture quotes say nothing about the lost tribe(s)or “other people” bein the Indians of North America. As a joke I suggested to you maybe that refers to the Amish. Can’t you see how ridiculous that is? Just as unscriptural and foolish as you saying He’s talking about the North American Indians (Natives). What total misreading and misinterpretation of Scripture, a completely manmade doctrine. As for “Alma”, you must be joking. Alma never existed except in the mind of the author of the Book of Mormon, Mr. Joseph (“Joey”)Smith, the apparently sexually frustrated polygamist, who in the eyes of all Anabaptist and born-again Evangelical Christians was a recognized false prophet, and the founder of a manmade religion, or as the Hutterites say: “Another belief”. I hope that doesn’t hurt too much, but you said you are here to learn (???) from your (Anabaptist) roots. The Truth shall set you free. You’ve wandered too long in the world of man made religion. You might want to consider repenting and coming home. Can’t you feel the burning in your heart!
I suspect you are probably a good person, but like the rest of us, not good enough to make Heaven your home. Our hope must be built on Jesus Christ and His righteousness. HE is our salvation. It’s still the blood that cleanseth us from all sin. Its not “principles”, manmade doctrines, traditions of men, false books claiming to be Scripture, or any other distraction devised to keep us from knowing the Truth. HE is the TRUTH. Outside of Him, there is no salvation. “HEAR YE HIM”. SEARCH the Scriptures, the Holy Bible. “THESE ARE THEY THAT TESTIFY OF HIM.” HE lovingly warns us that in the last days there will be many “false prophets” and they will lead many astray. Stephanie, it’s time to come home, come home to the cross. He’s waiting. There are x-Mormons among us, who were snatched from the burning, who are fervently praying for you.
Amen!
Amen!
Miller, I so appreciate the insight and wisdom you bring to this discussion!
I join you in praying that Stephanie and others ensnared in this false doctrine may open their eyes and their hearts and “Come home.”
Amen….
Lost Tribes House of Israel & Religious Tolerance
My Grandfather, who was Mennonite, believed we were of the house of Israel. While most of his children laughed this, I believed him. I do think some people have some of that blood in them, and their identity has be “lost”. That’s why I didn’t get the “joke” at first.
I try to make heaven my home, and my home a heaven on earth. I understand your strong view against some of mine and don’t want to upset you, but would like to share mine with other people on here too. I hope we can be tolerant of one another’s beliefs here.
How Will We Defend Our Religous Freedom?
I also hope we can help and uplift one another especially during this time of unprecedented fear and crisis, including to preserve our religious freedom. That’s the main reason I posted what I did recently that started our discussions up again on this thread. I believe we will need to work together with tolerance for one another’s beliefs, because our religious freedoms desperately need defending now and I believe it will take a group effort. I’m very interested in all views on that subject particularly. https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/bednar-covid-19-pandemic-religious-freedom?imageView=20200617_102616_Nilsson_DSCF1206.jpg
Thank You!
Religious Freedom 2
The segment I was interested in sharing and getting feedback about is on Elder Bednar’s remarks, which begin at the 32:25 mark in the video in the post I just made above.
Are you seeking converts for Joey Smith's religion?
I’ve enjoyed your postings, and I believe you believe what you believe, but of course that doesn’t make it true. Freedom of Religion is a good thing. I guess that’s why you are so full of charity toward the hundred or so offshoots of Mormonism, especially the old order Mormons (Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) who still practise the Mormon/LDS religion as it was in the days of Joseph Smith, including polygamy. And what about the thousands of excommunicated Mormons? Freedom of Religion is a good thing. You can believe what you want to believe, but that don’t make it true.
Miller from Canada,
Freedom is a good thing? Then why are you still bashing me for sharing my perspective, instead of corroborating about how to preserve freedom? I’m seeking to do as Jesus asks, which includes standing up for the truth. You’re pointing the finger at me about charity? Ever read Luke 6:41-42?
It’s clear you don’t want to find common ground, but that isn’t going to stop me from posting what I feel might help others, just as Jesus taught, which includes calling out corruption when and where I see it. Your actions do not support freedom of religion here. Stop trying to suppress it!
Standing up for the truth?! Stephanie, you have been so deceived! I know you likely believe the teachings of the LDS are “the truth” but they are far from sound and truthful! Miller is not trying to suppress anything but rather point out fallacy of Mormonism! How dare you suggest Christianity is corrupt? You have written your condemnation for “other Mormon” groups so you yourself opened the door on that one.
Just Wars Principle
Mark, when I spoke of corruption I was mainly referring to the FLDS, specifically corrupt leadership that led to child sexual abuse, which others on here have also condemned.
Miller, are you speaking for all Amish and Mennonites? Are you afraid to let them choose for their selves? I have considered the Amish religion, but I don’t believe in shunning. I also believe it is our duty to defend ourselves, our families, and our liberty, as Abraham did. We all have different purposes and missions in life, so we don’t all have to believe the same.
This passage helped me understand beliefs against war, and respect them, but it also explains the just wars principles, which is what I’ve chosen to live.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/98?lang=eng
Miller speaks the truth and he can speak for me. “Are you afraid to let them choose for their selves?” that definitely sounds like you are here looking to convert people. You got one thing very wrong — Amish is not a religion. It’s the way I live. I am a Christian. You have opened the eyes of many people I know and you have exposed the Mormon Church as a false church. Miller is right. You are confused and through no fault of your own. You have been deceived. Reach out for help. There are many who would love to see you “come home.”
Time to come on home.
Thanks Stephanie (I think). It seems, however, that your concept of freedom of religion is the freedom to try to convert Amish and Anabaptist believers to Mormonism. Freedom of religion requires that we also point out false prophets, false literature (Example: Book of Mormon), and false doctrine wherever it is found. We are free to do that. It’s time now for you consider coming home to the faith of your Mennonite grandfather and take up the cross. You claim to believe in the Joseph Smith religion, but it seems to have left you confused and without peace. Come on home, and you’ll receive help in your spiritual journey. The Amish and Mennonites and Hutterites discerned long ago that Mormonism is not the true church. You can believe anything you want to be believe, but that doesn’t make it true. Many here are praying for you and believing for your “return” to the faith of your Mennonite grandfather. You appear to be a sincere lady, and likely believe what you believe, and you are entitled to do that, but it still doesn’t make it true. Search the Scriptures (Holy Bible) for they testify of HIM, and in them you will find the pathway to eternal life. There is cleansing power in the blood of Christ, enough to set the vilest sinner free. Everything else is make believe and fairy tales, or as the old Hutterites used to say “a different belief”, a man made religion, truth mixed with error, in which the enemy of our souls takes much delight. Stephanie, maybe it’s time to come on home to the “faith of your fathers, living still”.
Mark, when I spoke of corruption I was mainly referring to the FLDS, specifically corrupt leadership that led to child sexual abuse, which others on here have also condemned.
Miller, are you speaking for all Amish and Mennonites? Are you afraid to let them choose for their selves? I have considered the Amish religion, but I don’t believe in shunning. I also believe it is our duty to defend ourselves, our families, and our liberty, as Abraham did. We all have different purposes and missions in life, so we don’t all have to believe the same.
This passage helped me understand beliefs against war, and respect them, but it also explains the just wars principles, which is what I’ve chosen to live.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/98?lang=eng
I am home and invite others to also come home, to Zion.
Israel, Israel, God is calling,
Calling thee from lands of woe.
Babylon the great is falling;
God shall all her tow’rs o’erthrow.
Come to Zion, come to Zion
Ere his floods of anger flow.
Come to Zion, come to Zion
Ere his floods of anger flow.3
The Mormon Tabernacle Choir sings “Israel, Israel, God Is Calling.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiuuSQPsW_I
Israel, Israel God Is Calling · Alex Boyé
(Tongan?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abuzbcZ03xg
You are still in the far country...
Dear lady, You are NOT in “Zion” and you are not “home”. You are caught up in Joseph Smith’s Mormonistic hideway, far from “home”. You are truly in the “far country” and you are actively trying to convert Amish, Mennonites, and Hutterites to your fictional religion. Personally, I think the same spirit that “inspired” the so-called prophet, Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon is the same spirit that inspired (“Joey”) the so-called “prophet” Mohammed and his Quoran/Koran, another work of fiction. Both were strong polygamists, too. They are “inspired” by the same spirit. You can believe whatever you want to believe and follow any old make-believe “prophet” you like, but that doesn’t mean it’s true. You may be a good person, but your principles, values, and good works will not assure you of a “home” in the true “Zion” of God. The fact remains, “you, too, must be born again”. Many of us are prayinhg for you.
AMEN!!!
Amen, Miller! Her call to “come home to Zion” reveals her reasons for being here.
Zion is the kingdom of heaven. It can be in one person’s heart living in harmony with God or a group doing so. My definition of heaven is broader than yours, for it includes tolerance of different religions, however the church is also Zion. My purpose here was to urge preparation, as taught here ~ Preparation for the Second Coming by Elder Oaks https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/04/preparation-for-the-second-coming?lang=eng
There are a few things that come to mind. Stephanie, I understand your religion teaches that Jesus Christ was not just married but married to several wives. A Mormon once told me that the women who went to the tomb were (according to Mormon teaching) His wives. My first thought was that the Scriptures do not make ANY mention of that. my second thought was “Wow. These people are teaching stuff that’s just plain wrong!”
The Mormon church fully supported polygamy until it stood in the way of getting statehood. If it was a “requirement” for the “celestial kingdom” then it should probably still be, right? When core beliefs start shifting, you start wondering why. I’m not talking about cultural issues like let’s say the telephone, but actual beliefs. In the Mormon church it went from “a man should have at least three wives to enter the celestial kingdom” to “No, you can’t do that or you will be shunned.”
As for shunning. You know that gets practiced differently by different groups, right? One of my closest friends left our church and is “shunned” as you call it, but we still get together to laugh and talk and have coffee or whatever. He attends family gatherings, weddings, etc. I had to think of what your “prophet” Brigham Young says about “apostates.” He ordered his followers to “leave them alone severely.” In my limited experience with ex-Mormons, you guys “shun” a lot harder than we do.
Mark, we’ve already discussed your concerns here, including how The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does NOT teach that Jesus married anybody. Members, including leaders, may hypothesize or speculate, but it is NOT and never was church doctrine. If you really want to know the truth, you can read my previous witnesses as a life long member, on previous posts of this thread or go to the church website.
I understand shunning can be similar and the scriptural bases on which it’s done. Like beliefs in most all religions, it can be done many different ways. I’m sure some of us can shun harder than some Amish, but it doesn’t seem to be the norm.
Happy Independence Day Everybody
Is Mormonism really true, or a great deception?
Perhaps your “shunning” IS milder than some of the Amish, but according to some it appears to be far worse. Glad to hear that Jesus was never married. Will you stand by that? But do you believe that God the Father has a wife (or possibly wives)?
Is it true that even now some of your men are still being sealed (married) to more than one wife in your temples? I understand they do not live together or have sexual relations in this life, BUT they will in the life to come, producing children, as a polygamous family. Is this correct? Are some of your men married (sealed) to more than one wife in the Temple ceremony “for eternity”, and is it true that sometimes these women are married to somebody else in the here and now, BUT will be married in the Temple ceremony to another man (for the life to come)? Let’s be upfront about this since we all want to know the truth. Have you personally been “married” (sealed) in the Temple to some man, hopefully not to someone other than your current husband.
Please answer this truthfully, to clear up some “rumors”, as you seem to be sincere in what you believe. I’m sure you know a lot more than you are letting on in your postings, all of which are very interesting. Most Mormonites are not that open. I hope you won’t get in trouble for answering these questions. Thank you.
Since you are American, I will wish you HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY.
Hello again Miller,
You and others, have been confusing my church with the FLDS. They deceive to get into our temples to be sealed to more than one spouse and practice polygamy. I had a friend invite me to do so. We are not allowed to be married to more than one person in this life, so of course I declined.
Some of your questions I have already answered and can be found on the first page of this thread. If a man was sealed to his wife, and she dies, he may be married and sealed again in this life, and if they all live worthy, both marriages will last forever. Women may only be sealed to one husband, but if her husband dies, may be married till death. I’ve been married and sealed to only to one man. I will not get in trouble answering your questions and hope this helps.
Thank you for your Independence Day greeting 😀
I meant to say here we are not allowed to be married to more than one person at at time. Some marry again after a divorce or the death of a spouse. If a woman gets a divorce and an unsealing, she can be married and sealed to a different man, but unsealings are not as common as divorce.
Divorce?
Dear Stephanie, I hope you are NOT saying that your religion allows divorce and remarriage. Traditional Anabaptists of every stripe will be horrified. You just lost most of them.
Is it true that Joey (Joe Smith, your prophet) divorced his first and only legal wife, Emma, who refused to join with Brigham Young (a serial polygamist) and the LDS bunch that moved to Utah. She was totally opposed to polygamy, and that’s easy to understand.
Yes, divorce and remarriage are allowed. No, Joseph Smith never divorced Emma. Please stop referring to him as Joey; that is NOT his name. I’m aware how the Amish & Mennonites feel about divorce and am very glad for it, for the most part.
Will you also stop referring to Mormonism as “Christianity”?
No, I won’t, because it is a Christian church.
That has been proven to be untrue, Stephanie, time and time again here.
Not a "Christian" Church
Sorry dear lady, but the LDS is NOT a “Christian” Church, not even close. It’s part of the Mormonite religion, established by Joey (Joseph) Smith, the polygamist. Even if some Mormonists do not allow members to practise polygamy, it’s still part of your unscriptural “Scriptures”, and they still teach it will be practised in Zion/Heaven. Of course we also know there are many Mormonist groups that still practise it right out in the open. I know the religion is divided into many different sects, but the so-called Scriptures they have and the teachings of the sect still insist that polygamy will be practised in the life to come, and you know they believe that. You need to be totally transparent on this things. LDS is NOT a “Christian Church”. It’s a stand alone religion, or as our bishop used to say, “It’s another belief.” You didn’t answer my question: Does your religion teach that God is married and has more than one wife??? I hope you will respond with some clarity. Thank you. Once more, you have lots of good people (many are not, of course) who do a lot of good works, but like everybody else you are simply not good enough to make Heaven your home. That’s why we need the Saviour, who declared we must be “born again”.
AMEN!
Thank you, Miller and Mark, for stating your thoughts. I agree — Stephanie has taught us, shown us, and proved to us repeatedly that Mormonism or LDS or whatever label you choose NOT Christian. I am praying, Stephanie, that you will renounce the dark deception you are enmeshed in and come out of the darkness and into the Light of Christ!
The Church is like a great caravan—organized, prepared, following an appointed course, with its captains of tens and captains of hundreds all in place. What does it matter if a few barking dogs snap at the heels of the weary travelers? Is there a ravine to cross, a miry mud hole to pull through, a steep grade to climb? So be it. The oxen are strong and the teamsters wise. The caravan moves on. Are there storms that rage along the way, floods that wash away the bridges, deserts to cross, and rivers to ford? Such is life in this fallen sphere. The caravan moves on. Ahead is the celestial city, the eternal Zion of our God, where all who maintain their position in the caravan shall find food and drink and rest. Thank God that the caravan moves on! ~ Bruce R McConkie
Snapping Dogs
Stephanie,
Take heed those “snapping dogs” are not warning you of perils you are blind to. The dangers you are skirting are far more perilous to your eternal soul than you realize.
Praying that you may see the truth.
Some Verses to Ponder
Isaiah 43:10
Isaiah 44:6,8
Deut. 4:35
These verses from the Holy Scripture prove Mormonism is at odds with Holy Scripture.
I see no one commented on this. I looked those verses up. Wow. Those absolutely DO expose Mormonism as being in opposition to The Bible!
Mark, I read the scriptures offered. We do worship God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, and only this Godhead.
We also believe that only through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved , by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. ~ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.1,13?lang=eng&clang=eng#p1,13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8_LsqXCaz8
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/10/of-things-that-matter-most?lang=eng
According to Mormonism, is God married and does He have more than one wife?
Hello Stephanie. This is a rumor going around Anabaptist circles that LDS/Mormons teach or believe that God (the Father) is married and has several wives and they have numerous children. Is this true? I’ve asked you to you this before, and for some reason you won’t answer this. It’s time to be totally transparent on this one. Thank you.
And on that subject, I also wonder about the rumor going around that the Mormons believe Satan & Jesus were brothers, but I don’t expect an answer. Evasiveness seems to be the tactic used for these questions.
I’m hoping, Miller, that Stephanie can give a clear answer because I have heard and wondered about the same thing!
Who is the Heavenly Mother
Stephanie, I realize some of this questions may be difficult for you, and you may get into trouble if you give clear answers, but I hope you will be totally open. Another question is, in LDS teaching who is the Heavenly Mother? Is she the wife of the Heavenly Father. Does Heavenly Father have other wives? I await you reply. Thank you.
Yes, clear answers would be appreciated!
But I don’t expect to see any.
Q Asked Q Answered
LOL… Answers aren’t usually appreciated or even acknowledged. That’s why most people don’t read the scriptures. Likewise, I have already answered these questions, some several times, on two pages here. Some people don’t want to accept answers. It reminds me of my children, who kept asking in hopes to get the answer they wanted. I learned to say in response, and will use it here, “Question asked, question answered.”
It is fruitless to answer repetitive and disrespectful accusations. It makes it difficult to believe expressions are out of sincere concern, but indicate they are rather out of attempts to continue to slander and mislead. I understand the fears expressed but testify again they are not founded in reality. Reminds me of MSM. I’m not interested in debating, but in sharing God’s word, which I’ve already done.
Classic Cult Counterattack
Not interested in debating? Not founded in reality? LOL indeed!
I guess I’m just different. When someone asks me about my faith, I give a clear and honest answer. If asked again, I will answer again. And again. But then again, I have nothing to hide.
Cults will usually evade direct questions
It’s very common for cults of any description to evade direct answers to uncomfortable questions. This dialogue has been very interesting, and many spiritual-minded believers have been blessed by it. Yes, it’s frustrating when cultists try to evade questions, or give misleading answers, but it’s eye-opening. The objective is not only to protect the flock, but also to allow cultists to freely speak and thereby expose their beliefs to scrutiny. Just as important is the deliverance of the cultist(s) from untruth and false doctrine, and bring them to a personal salvation experience.
It is interesting to see the evasion, Miller, but also very sad.
The last thing I wish to do is go back through all these comments looking for answers to the questions asked. Maybe if I had lots of spare time? Unfortunately my time online is limited. Sorry for being “late to the party” and asking questions.
Repetitive and disrespectful accusations? Slander and mislead? Oh. Sorry I was hoping to learn the answers to my questions! Apparently that isn’t going to happen. I live and work in an area with a lot of tourists. I answer that kind of thing over and over again. Like Kate, I always figured I had nothing to hide.
The fears and accusations that this church is a cult is not based in reality. Those who truly want answers will take the time to prayerfully read a couple pages of them already presented.
“10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.” ~ Revelations 12
The statements that Mormonism is a branch of Christianity is not based in reality.
All you have shown is elusiveness and you have proven one thing only — the church of the Mormons is not based in Christianity. I do not understand why you keep saying that when all the evidence you have shown refutes that claim! And yet you go on counterattacks and refuse you back your claims or offer answers.
The caravan has veered off course and you are mired down in quicksand and stranded in the wilderness, Stephanie, but those “barking dogs” are hoping to lead you back to the only path that will lead to eternal rest.
Still praying for you.
Oh. I see. Well, thanks for sharing your beliefs and giving honest and open answers. Unfortunately I don’t have that time. I guess that tells me all I need to know. Evasion is the classic cult tactic.
I have no doubt that many or most Mormons are moral people, but they do not hold to Christianity. Mormonism is a cult. It was started less than 200 years ago by a man named Joseph Smith who claims he visited with God. That in itself is odd, because God cannot be seen! They claim God was a man on another planet who became God. Christians the One True God – the God who always has been and always will be. The God we worship as Christians is the Creator of ALL creation. They claim God had a wife. Their version of God created Satan and Jesus with Mrs. God, making them brothers. Mormons don’t believe in the Trinity – God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, as we Christians do. They say you can BECOME a God. They make “gods.” This is blasphemy and already shows they have given up any claims to Christianity. The Bible ALONE is the Word of God! Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
Joseph Smith told his followers, “We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.” In another event he said, “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth.” After hearing just those two quotes, Christians would be running for their lives. Their ETERNAL lives.
A few very important verses to consider when trying to decide if Mormonism is Christian or a cult:
Galatians 1: 8-9, But even if we or an angel from Heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that person be condemned!
Matthew 24: 24-25 False messiahs and false prophets will come and do great miracles and wonders, trying to fool the people God has chosen, if that is possible. Now I have warned you about this before it happens.
II Corinthians 11: 4-6 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you might well bear with him. For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. I may be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
I Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
I John 4: 1-2 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh from God.
Matthew 7: 15-16 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
So — Joseph Smith claimed to see God? How does the following verse tie into that???
1 Timothy 6: 15-16 which God will bring about in His own time – God the blessed and Ony Ruler, the King of kings and lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Mormons say God was once a man and deny that Jesus was God in the flesh. Yet in Malachi (3: 6) we read: For I the Lord do not change, therefore you, O children of Israel, are not consumed. And in John 1: 1-4 we read: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the Light of all mankind.
In John 1:14 we read: The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Stephanie, please prayerfully consider these points. Leave the book of Mormon out of it, for your redemption can come ONLY from the One True God, and set aside the claims of Joseph Smith and the tales of North America or any of that stuff, but focus only on these verses from the Holy Bible. Right now it’s far less important HOW Mormonism is labeled than whether you yourself are a Christian and right with the One True God.
In Revelations 12: 7-11 the apostle John sees a war in heaven where Satan and a third of the host of heaven was cast out, after accusing the brethren day & night. God cast them down to earth, where they continue to try the souls of men, to tempt and accuse good men of evil, appealing to and through the pride of mankind.
6 ¶ Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.~ Job 1:6&11
But wisdom is justified of all her children:
17 ¶ And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:17-18 & Matthew 11:19
This is an excellent reminder of the dangers of listening to false prophets who seek to sow seeds of false beliefs! Since Mormonism has been proven to be at odds with Christianity, this warning is so aptly appreciated. The wolves in sheep’s clothing do indeed wander among us here on the earth and present blasphemy and false prophets. I am so glad, Stephanie, to see you starting to question the things you have been taught by the Mormon Church! This is an answer to prayers!
I’ve always questioned everything, but didn’t make my last post as one, but as a confirmation that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is led by Jesus Christ. Please don’t misunderstand that. I all prove things with true principles as taught in the scriptures, as I’ve explained before.