Inspectors Catch Amish Breaking Gathering Limit – At Wedding Reception

The Amish in Geauga County have been having issues following the state’s “stay-at-home” order – at least to the satisfaction of their neighbors. Now, health officials have gotten involved.

First, Amish were reported for holding gatherings in violation of the state’s stay-at-home order. Non-Amish neighbors sent in photos allegedly showing Amish breaking the order’s rules.

Health inspectors are now filing a notice of violation against a group in the same community – for exceeding the 10-person gathering limit at a wedding reception, held yesterday.

Image: WKBN

Officials knew the wedding was going to happen. A person or persons complained about the event beforehand. Three hundred people were expected to be there.

The wedding, however, was off-limits to the inspectors – religious ceremonies are exempt.

But the wedding reception is not exempt. That’s where they were able to catch the violators:

Health inspectors went out and reported finding more than 30 people at a reception following the wedding.

Kris Wilster, with the health district, said they can’t enforce the 10-person maximum rule at religious ceremonies but they could do so for the reception.

It’s now “up to law enforcement” on whether the Amish will face charges.

Here’s the video report of concerns prior to the wedding. I would guess that catching the Amish at the reception was the plan.

So, under the current regime, it’s fine if a 300-person group gathers for a 3-hour wedding.

But if a small group of those people then goes off right after to eat some cake, you are in violation.

Does that make sense?

This is the second report of complaints over an Amish wedding in the past week.

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    1. Alex Knisely

      You're better than this, buddy

      “So, under the current regime, it’s fine if a 300-person group gathers for a 3-hour wedding.

      “But if a small group of those people then goes off right after to eat some cake, you are in violation.

      “Does that make sense?”

      No, of course not. But the antecedent of “that” is not the business of cake-eating. It’s that a 300-person wedding should be classed as a religious ceremony and therefore exempt from public-health sanctions.

      A minister, the groom, the bride. And 297 people are spared from virus-swapping.

      You know, or ought to know, that the religious event is the excuse for the eats and the visiting, and you darn well know, or ought to know, that one heck of a lot more people will be eating that cake.

      Behaviour of this sort by Amish folks is going to have weddings in their community banned for the duration of the emergency. Bad outcome, eh ?

      In presenting the events as you did, and in asking that question as you did, you’ve indulged in cheap rhetoric, and that’s a disappointment. Please try harder to be forthright and to be fair.

      1. Phew. Good that someone is here to keep me on track😅

        Well I’m glad we agree.

        So either reclassify the whole package as “religious event” or whatever legalese description, and let the receptions continue.

        Or actually include a religious ceremony size limit in the order.

        Or hey, go ahead and go fuller crackdown like some governments have done, and ban weddings entirely. Since we’ve gone this far already…

        These guys did break the gathering limit afterwards. And of course some Amish could better voluntarily regulate the scope of these weddings. That’s on them.

        But knowing the state’s Amish population, it’s little surprise not all are doing so (outside Geauga Co., some of the other plainer Ohio churches are currently “flagrantly flaunting” the stay-at-home order).

        Choose one better-aligned regime or another, communicate it clearly and enforce it, and they’ll be able to skip the drama of the inspection team swooping in on the cake part of wedding day.

        1. John J. Keim


          In my it’s as simple as this, if federal and state health officials mandate that groups of ten or more is unsafe, then simple logic would dictate, that would apply to weddings or any other event. It ain’t that hard folks.

        2. Alex Knisely

          Thanks, Erik --

          — glad we’re still pals.

          1. Thanks? Ok, sure. I wouldn’t change a thing about the post, just so that’s clear. But it was a good try;)

    2. Pat Monti

      Many Amish Don't Think Rules Apply to Them

      We live in an Amish area. Frankly many of them don’t think rules apply to them. To be as fair as possible, many English don’t either. However, it’s been our observations that that applies far more so to Amish than English in our area.

      1. Melanie Rowley

        Different view of the amish

        They don’t care about getting people sick or following the rules the rest of us are trying to follow.

        Shame on them. They are not a Godly people at all.

      2. Rudy

        Stay at Home applies to all

        It’s really quite simple. The State mandates a Social Distancing, Stay at Home order during a pandemic that has taken so very many lives, crippled the economy and so on and so forth. This DOES NOT mean that you can have a church gathering on Easter with 20+ folks within inches of each other. Even if it is outside. Maybe it’s time for posters to be put up in store windows in rural communities? The good book says, “render to Caesar what is Cesare’s, and this doesn’t apply to just taxes. Those who proclaim to be followers, need to learn to follow. Sects are not eliminated from this mandatory guideline. Even the English are recognized by God,promise. Please follow the orders!!

    3. Kimberly Warner

      Wedding reception

      I believe that all of us are losing our civil liberties in this whole virus thing. Civil officials have NO business interfering in church gatherings and services.

      1. Heather

        "Regime" is appropriate.

        I, for one, am very concerned about the loss of civil liberties we are experiencing right now. There are many scientists and doctors that are not even convinced that covid-19 exists. Perhaps in the land of the free we should be free to choose.
        I’m also not quite sure what Melanie’s definition of “godliness” is.
        As a Christian I believe that the course of my life was known at the time of creation. God is in control. If your concerned about the Amish spreading disease, then don’t associate with them. Actually, if you are sheltering in place, as you insist they should be doing, then you won’t be exposed to any disease they might be carrying.

        1. Martha Cable

          Government overreach

          Turn OFF your TV sets. They are part of the cabal and work in the interests of the democrat/bolsheviks. They push FEAR, 24/7. they couldn’t destroy Trump so they would prefer to destroy all the rest of us than lose power. I feel as if i am living in nazi germany. What’s next, being required to show papers? YES! That’s what fauci and gates are pushing. READ THE GEORGia guidestones. They want to reduce the population by 90%. Some places are outlawing the sale of seeds. They are creating chaos, DELiBERATELY. Now they have people squealing on each other, like little kids pointing fingers. I’d rather take my chances than see the whole world destroyed. This was a planned event. THEY WANT US DEAD, better yet, by killing each other off when the food shortages start. “Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty or safety’. Ben Franklin. This is getting us conditioned to take orders and COMPLY with whatever the government dictates.
          WAKE UP SHEEP. That’s what evil Kissinger call us,. SHEEP. Research all the quotes he’s made about killing us all.

    4. Nancy Veluvolu

      The police should stay out of it

      The Amish should be able to have their wedding if they choose to. They are a self governing community. It is also a religious event as well. They know the risks
      but also have their rights. If the Bishop accepts the risks of holding any event just the same as a governor does allowing church services. Leave them

      1. Nell B

        The Amish, or Orthodox Jews, or whatever religious group should be free to gather but ONLY if NOT ONE of those who gathered has any interaction with someone not of that group afterwards.

        1. Jeffrey C Masters


          That is exactly the point. These rules, as draconian as they are, are for the good of the population as a whole. The Amish, Baptists, Christians, Jews, or any other denomination should be free to worship as they see fit. The caveat to this should be enforced isolation if they go against the state mandate.

          1. Capt


            How easy all of you are ready to give up your first ammendment rights look at what they are doing

      2. Michelle

        Be sensible

        Where will these Amish folks go when the have their own internal pandemic from large gatherings? To the English hospitals to infect health care providers and over burden them with care. These rules apply to EVERYONE. Amish take note English people have cancelled ,rescheduled ,and made major changes to weddings graduations proms etc!!! You are not privy

    5. Tim

      I agree with Kimberly and Nancy! We all need to use common sense.

      1. Jeff Baker

        I agree with Kimber,Nancy,Tim and Stephen

        I agree with you Tim,Kimberly,Nancy and Stephen.

    6. Mark A Hochstetler

      The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

      As a physician, I could not disagree more with Kimberly, Nancy and Tim. Unless this Amish community lives in a hermetically-sealed box, their actions impact on the entire community around them. And that’s the irony here, as the Amish are all about community, but perhaps only their community. COVID-19 is a deadly disease–three to five times more contagious than the flu, eight times more likely to hospitalize you and 15-20 times more likely to kill you, depending on your age and underlying conditions. That’s why we have strong public health laws in the United States, to protect the health of the public/community. Under the law, your right to freely associate and congregate (including religious rites) is limited when it infringes on the right of others to health and life itself. Under public health law you do not have unlimited rights to do whatever you wish when it is very likely it will bring injury to others. For example, I once treated a man for tuberculosis (TB) who refused to take his medicine. Despite being extremely contagious he made a point of infecting others and condeming them to six, long months of treatment. Public health officials had him taken into custody, chained to a hospital bed since he refused to cooperate and held for six months until he had completed his course of treatment and could no longer infect others. He was a selfish, thoughtless man. And the Amish in this news item are at best thoughtless and more likely selfish as they pursue their own path, insensitive to its impact on others. Shame on them as I know they know better.

      1. I think it may very well be fair to say Amish here are being selfish. But I also don’t think we should be surprised when a mish-mash policy leads to certain groups failing to respect that policy. Either the virus is a significant danger in gatherings of some size, or it isn’t. 

        If you’re one of the Amish groups that already has a dicey relationship with secular authority, mixed messages via an illogical rule set make it that more likely those groups disregard that authority’s rules. Not absolving the Amish of responsibility. But the policy is dumb.

      2. Margaret Shearman

        perspective on what is community

        I can agree with the doctor as I was thinking about this very thing today. Our small community is now having a quick spike in Covid-19 illness and the tracing is going back to our Amish communities. Our Amish utilize most aspects of our community…banks, stores, etc. Now we are finding people outside the Amish community are contracting the virus at a greater rate. I found myself angry as I have spent, as others have too, isolating and wearing a mask, washing my hands, educating my family on how this all works (I was a nurse), being berated because people said it wasn’t that serious and I should relax, and maintaining my health as I am older and have health conditions. One day I ventured out to the post office and saw people (mostly Amish) entering stores, etc. without a mask. They weren’t coming back out immediately so the store owner must have said they could come in. I am sorry for my anger, but I have done my part and my best in this pandemic only to wonder why I even tried. I finally centered on the thought that it is how people see themselves in community. I think Jesus speaks of that very often. I do feel threatened now with the rise of Covid-19 diagnoses in our community and I know said it would be here at our doorstep especially after there was a farmer’s auction and an Amish wedding a week to 10 days ago. It is now here and I feel sad and angry because there was nothing I could do about the attitude of arrogance I saw being played out in our community by both Amish and English. I did my best and I hope I kept someone else safe with my part. I just pray I don’t get sick as my health is not the greatest.

    7. Stephen

      Over reaction

      We all need to be responsible for ourselves. Life itself is filled with danger. Just driving a car or crossing the street is risky.
      But most of us use a little common sense in the things we do. If we were not smart enough to do that, then the human race would have become extinct a long time ago. If you believe everything the media or the government said, we would all have been hiding in our houses decades ago from worrying about all the supposed inevitable doom and gloom.
      According to public health officials around the world, the people who are at risk are those in there 60s and upward. The human immune system begins it’s decline around 60. The vast majority of the deaths from coronavirus are older adults. And very few under 60, with the exception of those who have existing health problems. The media in this country takes every story they can find of someone younger than 60 getting it, and blows it out of proportion, leaving out many of the important facts, such as they had asthma or hiv.
      If people are afraid of catching Corona virus, they as individuals have the option of taking whatever precautions they desire. But when they start telling other people what to do,and how to live, they’ve crossed the line into infringing upon people’s individual right to weigh the facts, and to make decisions for themselves.
      Those Amish weighed the facts and decided there was little risk to gather for a wedding. If anyone among them wasn’t comfortable with their decision, they had the right to stay home!
      And strangely, if the nosey neighbors were worried about getting it, what were they doing sneaking over there like the KGB,and taking pictures. Neighbors like that, nobody needs! Maybe those neighbors would prefer living in Cuba or Venezuela.

      1. Nicholas

        What will happen in the end.

        Your comments echo thoughts I have been having about this whole mess. I think the measures are over done, not likely to be effective and partially unconstitutional.

        The Amish live differently and more simply than the rest of us do. I hope someone does a follow up to this story to see what affect the virus has on their community.

        I would wager it’ll be minimal or nil.

    8. Mark A Hochstetler

      Your rights end where mine begin

      Stephen and others, it would appear you are not clear on the fact that your rights are not unlimited. There are boundaries between your rights and the rights of other people. If you don’t want to deal with the social responsibility of honoring those boundaries you should remove yourself from human society and relocate to a wilderness area where you have no neighbors and minimum human contact. All rights are not equal. The human rights of safety, security, health and life take precedence over your right to assemble freely, travel where you wish, etc. Assuming you are under the age of 60, the fact that catching the virus poses very little personal risk to you and therefore directs your behavior to do whatever you wish, regardless of the consequence to your neighbors and community, is about as good an example of self-centered selfishness as I can imagine. The restrictions are not meant to protect you; they’re intended to protect the vulnerable. But when you become unnecessarily infected because you pursued your rights without limit, and then infected your 85-yearl old neighbor accidentally, leading to their death, you have essentially traded their life for your right to hang out with your friends. Let’s up the ante a bit and re-visit the 1300s and the Black Death. The Black Death killed nearly 50% of the European population and was a particularly gruesome way to die. I am a Black Death carrier and transmit it to others, but do not die from it. I move in next door to you. How do you now feel about my right to freely associate with members of the community, to drink from the same village well as you and pass the disease to you and your family? Does my right to do whatever I please take precedence over you and your family’s right to live safely and enjoy good health?

      1. John J. Keim

        Ref: your rights end where mine begins

        Dr. Hochstetler, I agree with your analysis 100%. Some people see everything as black and white, with no nuances. There simply is no reasoning with willful ignorance.

      2. KimH

        Beautifully said

        I totally agree with Mark Hockstetler. Said so very well, thank you.
        Sorry, shut down your parties. If you want to get married, do, but save the party for later.
        Yes, its irritating, yes,it inconveniences us all but death is permanent. It may not be your death but it may be somebody you love.
        I’ve heard that Covid19 is now starting to move thru Amish communities. Bet if it continues these few Amish who aren’t abiding by the governor’s orders will quickly.

      3. Geo


        Amen Mark, and thanks. That ideological ignorance needed answering and you did it well. Some people become so overwhelmed with one ideology or another that they lose their ability to reason.

      4. Stephen

        It's not meant to protect the vulnerable!

        We are all vulnerable to catching a virus. No children have died from Corona virus. Those under 60 have very little risk of dying from it. Most people do not even know that they have it. The highest mortality rate is among the elderly. And yet even among the elderly there is a high survival rate. The mortality rate from the flu of 2018 over 61,000 individuals. The vast majority of those being elderly who were already dying or were already ill, with the flu being a contributing factor, just as it is now. Look at the CDC website for the actual figures. Go on youtube and isten to the head physician in south Korea who lays out the facts without the emotionally charged hysterical thinking of those who put their faith in the liberal media rather than in faith in God and the clear facts. No one is putting others at risk. That’s an excuse used by dictators to enact tyrannical regulations that have nothing to do with protecting people. Most politicians wouldn’t do a thing to help anyone unless it benefited them. We have hundreds of thousands of homeless in california that the government has encouraged and ignored for years. We have millions of Americans whos standard of living has continued to drop for decades, because of the legislation that they enacted. So who are you trying to fool by saying the government just wants to help! You are either a complete …. or you live completely in a fantasy world. Come back to reality! Your government is not here to help you! It’s here to use you as a cash cow!

        1. Mark A Hochstetler

          This discussion has reached a dead end

          There’s no reply to paranoia that makes any difference. I’ve made my point and I’m moving on.

          1. Matthew

            This discussion has reached a dead.

            Thank you Mr. Hochstetler. I respect and agree with your point of view. You and Mr. Keim carry unique perspectives from your cultural backgrounds. Old Order groups are more particularly prone to believing their rural bullheaded English neighbours views on conspiracies and government encroachments that it feeds into a natural stubbornness and paranoia of the broader world.

        2. Jeff Baker

          I’d rather be dead from a virus than live in a Tyranny. Living in a Nazi-Stalin prison is not living. Soon we will be living in a concentration camp waiting in a soup line. This is going to turn into a world wide revolution.

          Time to turn off the main stream news and get together with your neighbors – get acquainted – talk – it will open up your minds. Find out what really is going on – It’s not a Virus that is going on. Check out what 5g is doing to us.

          Hospitals are not crazy busy. I was just at the emergency room with my wife yesterday here in southern Wisconsin and it was empty. There were 6 police officers outside and my wife said 5 police inside an only 2 other patients in the emergency room. Get out of your homes and check out your local hospital. The news reports are full of nonsense.

          1. Stephanie Berkey

            Jeff, I appreciate your post and vigilance for freedom, but highly doubt the entire world would be exaggerating it that much. Your area hasn’t had as many cases as other places. To compare it, see below:

            Coronavirus Realtime Updates (with Worldwide Map)

          2. John J. Keim

            Tinfoil hat

            You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat there buddy. You do realize that there is a whole world out there beyond your small community, right?

            1. Stephanie Berkey

              Isn’t everyone going to be exposed to it eventually? I thought the main idea was not to overwhelm the medical system. Prolonging it too much will make things much worse (the economy).

          3. Christine Crapser

            Jeff Baker I completely agree with you, thank you!

    9. Eloise Krupp

      New data shows death rate exaggerated

      This is a link to a conservative news source explaining how the mortality rate has been exaggerated.

    10. Georgianne


      How many people commenting here live in the New York metro area? If you did you would absolutely not be siding with the Amish in this. My daughter was supposed to be getting married, but we postponed the wedding until December and we hope the heck it is safe to gather by then.

      Hospitals here are crazy; dead bodies are being loaded into refrigerated trucks for storage. People are trying to get tested but are turned away because they’re not sick enough. Every person on this planet is responsible for the next person regardless of race, religious affiliation, ethnicity, gender, or any other label you might want to attach. This coronavirus doesn’t give a hoot about labels. And you don’t know when one random interaction, however innocent, will lead to the virus spreading. As Mark wrote, “The restrictions are not meant to protect you; they’re intended to protect the vulnerable.” If you don’t want your city or town or community to become the next hotspot, or see your husband (or wife, child, etc.) running a 103 fever and gasping for breath but not sick enough to get tested, and see the dead being loaded onto a truck for storage, then wake up and stop thinking only about yourself. I used to admire the Amish, and am obviously on this site, but this flouting of the rules has really turned me off. Not Christian, not ethical or moral, but just shameful.

      1. New York sounds like a really bad scene, and I hope that starts getting better soon. Hang in there.

        Only thing I’ll add is that there are a variety of responses to this among “the Amish.” A good number of Amish churches both in Ohio and outside the state have stopped meeting for church and weddings.

        1. Georgianne


          Yeah, I realize not all Amish are using their religion as an excuse not to obey. It’s pretty obvious that some people who have commented on this topic are also not paying much attention because they’d rather politicize the problem than do the responsible thing.

    11. Kevin

      Policed State

      This is nothing more that the Democratic government trying to push socialism and a policed state into the Amish community as well. We in the English world know the democrats hate it when people are self-sufficient instead of depending on them for everything including their food. Yes we may have a virus on our hands. But the democrats will use anything to their advantage of forcing their agendas onto us. The ultimate goal of the democrat in One World Order being ruled by China (Since this is where it came from) and the UN. If the democrats get their way, they will never allow things to open and go back to the way they were. It’s a sad situation we are living in right now.

      1. John J. Keim


        First of all, your ignorance of the world is astounding. You might want to do some self introspection of yourself first, before making such ignorant comments.

      2. eo

        Typical troll comment

        Now I judge Kevin and his anti-Democrat rant to be a typical Russian, maybe Ukrainian, maybe Chinese troll comment. But hey “Kevin” or Boris. Or whatever your name is, why not answer me back and try to prove you are legitimate and not a paid professional troll working out of the Kremlin.

    12. Brett Sweeney

      Amish social distancing

      As a Paramedic and EMS dispatcher, I must agree with Dr. Hochstetler! I am constantly taking calls for people stricken with COVID-19. This is not something to be taken lightly. FEMA has requested an additional 700, yes 700 ambulances to be sent from around the United States to NYC to help with this mess. My company was dispatched to assist as well. As we were enroute, we were told to stand down. Our understanding is our Gov. has halted us going to NYC. Not because he doesn’t want us to help out, because we always go to other states to help out for Hurricanes and other disasters, he doesn’t want us to bring the disease back to our families and friends and co-workers. This disease causes a painful death and basically you wind up drowning in your own fluids and placed on a ventilator. For those who still think this is media-hype, think again! Please listen to the Government on this one. There is a surgeon on youtube named Dr. Duc, please watch his video as he explains just how bad this virus is. But be forewarned, he uses strong language and tells it like it is. Please be safe.

    13. Geo


      This certainly caused some ideologs to surface. Either that or it’s paid Russian trolls pretending to be American ideologs in order to sow discontent. (as they are known to do) I only know it might possibly be real people from being acquainted with such folks. You would think them too busy memorizing talking points from FOX/Limbaugh and White house tweets to find time for a website dedicated to Amish culture. Mark Hochstetler finally realized it’s futile trying to penetrate an ideolog’s insularity. I’ve literally anguished trying to understand their thinking and finally concluded ideologs don’t think once adopting an ideology. Ideology substitutes for thinking insulating them from any discomfort, any insecurity, or any need whatever, to think critically or doubt or question anything. It must be a comfortable, peaceful state of mind being free of any need for raionality. It sure ain’t real smart.

      1. Nicholas


        And there are no Democratic Socialist ideologues?

        1. Geo

          Democrat ideologs

          There certainly could be and must be Democrat ideologs. However many there may be don’t seem to be very active. I don’t find them injecting their FOX news/Rush Limbaugh talking point propaganda all over the internet.

          Impersonating right wing ideologs seems to suit the purposes of foreign trolls whosee task is sowing dissension among Americans (as uncovered by US intelligence). Trolls give themselves away by being over the top extreme sometimes using clumsy English out of a thesaurus. (counterpoint)

          I’m still waiting for “Kevin” to respond. (or was it Nicholas?)

          1. Nichollas

            You're not looking

            If you don’t see left wing ideologues spreading vile hatred all over the internet, you aren’t looking. They don’t need a Rush Limbaugh type. They have Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Jerry Nadler et al to spew lies and fan the flames of hatred.

            1. Geo


              Well, “Nicholas” or “Nichollas” (with 2 Ls) or “Kevin”, or is it Boris, here in the USA we have a word we use when we trap somebody. The word is GOTCHA. Do they have a word for that in your language?

    14. Jeff Baker

      I went to Dalton, Wisconsin today to shop at Mishler’s Country Store,Mast’s dent & bent,Pleasant View Bakery and favorite farm for fresh eggs. The Amish are going about there business as usual and talkative. Half of the English people were paranoid with masks/gloves on and the other half were calm and happy. The Amish don’t have TV-Phones and Internet – This Plandemic is not affecting them.

      1. Thanks for this report. Interesting to hear how things are still buzzing along in that Amish corner. Well, like much of the country, rural Wisconsin is not New York City (population density: 28,000 people/square mile).

        1. Georgianne

          Things should not be "buzzing along"

          I’m not sure your population density figure is accurate there, but in Macomb County Michigan the population density is approx. 2,200 people per sq, mile. (Far less than your quoted population density, but then I think you got the comma in the wrong place.) Meanwhile they have had 445 deaths out of 4,425 identified cases as of yesterday. That gives them a 10% fatality rate in a location that is far more rural than New York, since you like to compare other geographic locations as having less of a problem than the NY metro area. As the news article I quote that information from stated, “It’s easy to say fatalities are a reasonable cost for saving the economy if you think that the dead people won’t be people you know or care about.”

          1. No, the comma is in the right place. 28,000 people per square mile is New York City’s population density (though that includes all five boroughs; Manhattan’s is 72,000, while Staten Island on the other extreme is about 8,000).

            I thought it would be clear especially considering the numbers involved over a square mile, but maybe the sentence wasn’t written as clearly as it could be.

            Typical Midwestern rural counties are vastly less-densely populated of course. The entire Green Lake County, WI area where the Amish settlement in question above is located, has only 19,000 *total people* – spread over 349 square miles. That’s about 55 people per square mile.

            Extreme measures make more sense in a place like NYC, than they do in other places where at this point some businesses should be able to operate while taking sensible precautions. Treating the rest of the country as if it is NYC, and especially rural areas, does not make much sense.

            Also, Macomb County is not a “rural county.” It is basically a large chunk of Metro Detroit, along with a more rural section, and has 840,000 people total. Since it does include a sizeable chunk of rural land, that brings the total “county” population density down. I’m going to hazard a guess that those 4,425 identified cases are mostly located in the more densely-populated metro area and not in the more lightly-populated north of the county.

            If you did not see it, I replied to your other comment, and I pointed out the less-immediately-obvious deaths which very likely will result from mass shutdowns of economies, and how this should be a “lives vs. lives” discussion and not painted as “lives vs. money”.

            Here’s the link:

            And by the way, just what exactly is being implied or suggested with your sharing of this quote?

            “It’s easy to say fatalities are a reasonable cost for saving the economy if you think that the dead people won’t be people you know or care about.”

            1. Georgianne


              So much for reading comprehension before coffee. I was thinking you had been referring to the Amish population hence thinking you had the comma in the wrong spot.

              I had a way too long response written but lost it. Probably a good thing. This response is too long also. I think my first issue with your one response was the fact you didn’t think those who had “probably” died of the coronavirus should be added to the official number of deaths. I disagree. Even if a person dies before being tested, doctors are looking at the CT and MRI scans and seeing positive signs of the coronavirus. They know what they’re looking at. So, yes, those people should absolutely be added to the death toll even if testing never confirmed it. Testing is not nearly as easily gotten nor as widespread as it’s made out to be.

              Btw, doctors in CA have identified, through testing, three people who died of the coronavirus long before anyone was getting tested in the US. The earliest was Feb. 6 and had no travel history. I doubt anyone is going to do widespread testing on the dead, since they can’t even do enough on the living, but it does indicate that the virus accounts for many who were presumed to have died of influenza and that the coronavirus was circulating long before it became headline news.

              I’m not sure what you’re trying to say about lives vs lives and money vs lives. Your rationale is eluding me. If you value other people’s lives you’ll abide by the restrictions until it’s deemed okay to reopen in a way that makes sense. Money vs lives says to me that money means more than other people. It’s the people screaming to open the economy while they block an intersection in Michigan making it impossible for ambulances and those in need of medical help to get to the hospital. It’s the lt. gov. of Texas saying it’s okay if he dies if the economy can stay open. It’s the mayor of Las Vegas wanting to open things up even as she says she would never go to a casino herself because it would be too risky and she has a family. She’s offering the people of Las Vegas up as guinea pigs to see if social distancing is worth it, but she won’t expose herself. Those are all selfish irresponsible things to say and do. And the quote is appropriate. It’s very easy to shout things if you don’t think it has any bearing on your life, or those you love.

              As for the Amish, yes I know not all Amish are disobeying the restrictions but since this all started on a post about those who did … it doesn’t matter if there are only 55 people per square mile. All it would take is one wedding with one infected person for the virus run rampant through their community.
              Where would a severely ill Amish person go? Where is the hospital located? Hospitals tend to have the resources in proportion to the community they serve so it doesn’t matter if it’s a small town hospital or a big city hospital — each can get overwhelmed if need exceeds what they can handle.

              Anyway, the virus is not going away. The point wasn’t to stay in our homes to outlast it. It was to lessen the burden on the health care system. In the future, the hope is that if you do need to go to the hospital you will get better care because not everyone will be there needing the same treatment all at the same time. Everyone is going to end up catching this at some point and, yes, most will never know they had it with little or no symptoms. But many people will continue to die from it.

              And last, I don’t think the amount of people who die, or have died, due to the restrictions in any way equals those who would have died of the coronavirus had the US not put any restrictions in place.

              Oh, and as far as third world countries. Donate to Doctors Without Borders or Americares or any charity that is helping.

              1. Stephanie Berkey

                It’s not just a matter of money, but survival as a nation. It has the potential to cause many more to die eventually, and us to lose more vital liberties. Lives aren’t the only things at stake her, but also the economic survival and our rights & freedom. I respect you point of view and right to choose for yourself, but not to impose it on everyone.

                Americans did a good job flattening the curve, and can do it again when needed. I can understand your point of view, but most places aren’t as bad as some and may never be. Many people have more common sense and self control than to need to be dictated to. Restrictions shouldn’t be the goal as some leaders like to think. Good leaders teach people correct principles and allow them to govern their selves, as much as possible. That isn’t happening in Michigan. There are different ways to approach this appropriately in different areas.

              2. Basically there is not only the economic damage and other harmful social disruptions that have come from the states’ various shutdowns and related actions, but there is going to be a cost in lives to shutting down the economy, and it is could be vastly greater than what has been gained by continuing the shutdown in much of the country. Restricting things might have been prudent when there was more uncertainty about COVID-19, but with what we know now it is hard to justify continuing such rigid restrictions in a lot of the country now.

                The article link below, by a Stanford University doctor, is good to read in its entirety. But the excerpt I’ve shared is a good brief summary of some of the medical problems created by this (domestically, leaving out reverberations in other more dependent countries). One reason I didn’t like the new “probable or presumed” CDC standard is that better accuracy in ascribing the cause as COVID-19 would help to reduce some of the fear that is preventing people needing treatment or screening for other diseases to receive it – because they are afraid to go to the hospital due to all they’ve heard in the news.

                The other point on that, is I am not sure how a medical person is supposed to identify this just by visually examining a deceased person – especially when you consider that the vast majority of people who think they have COVID-19 and have gotten tested for it, have turned out to be negative.

                Of the 5.5 million+ tests given in the US to date, less than 1 million have come back positive (less than 1 in 5). Yes, there are surely a certain number of false negatives, but not 4.5 million of them. Those numbers suggest that a great many living people who, going by reported or observed symptoms have reason to suspect they have COVID-19, simply do not.

                In any case it sounds like the good news is New York is past the peak of cases, and hopefully much of the country is going to start opening up again, slowly if need be, but sensibly.

                Here’s the Stanford doc article excerpt.


                ‘Third, due to fear and the single-minded focus on COVID-19 regardless of cost, other people are dying. Critical medical care isn’t being provided. Millions of Americans have missed critical health care for fear of encountering the disease, and people are dying to make room for “potential” coronavirus patients.

                When states and hospitals abruptly stopped “nonessential” procedures and surgery, that didn’t mean unimportant care. Treatments for the most serious illnesses, including emergency care, were missed. Some estimate about half of cancer patients deferred chemotherapy. Approximately 80 percent of brain surgery cases were skipped. Perhaps half or more of acute stroke and heart-attack ­patients missed their only chances for early treatment, some dying and many now facing permanent disability. Transplants from living donors are down 85 percent from the same period last year.

                And that doesn’t include the skipped cancer screenings, avoided childhood vaccinations, missed biopsies of now-undiscovered cancers numbering thousands per week — and countless other serious disorders left undiagnosed.’

                1. Nicholas

                  Pent up demand

                  Though I have not seen it mentioned anywhere, we are creating “pent up demand” for all the services that are not allowed now. When we again allow them, there will be a much larger number of users per time period queueing up to receive them. And a larger than normal number of people in the waiting rooms.

                2. Stephanie Berkey

                  What’s creeping in is Socialism (a pathway to communism) and the civil rights violations and genocide that go with it (like the Holocaust where 6 million Jews were murdered). It’s the driving force behind dictatorial leadership like Communist China’s civil rights violations: forced vaccinations, abortions, & organ harvesting. There are communists and socialists working subtly in every country. It’s usually pushed in the name of the people’s good, until it’s too late, in a gradual transition and is anti-Christ. It’s pushed also by creating a crisis, then coming in to “help”.

                  Many people are too young to remember how horrible the Great Depression was. My grandparents would speak of it, and it was a very desperate time. When we find ourselves in such dependent positions we should reverse it as soon as possible. No country is impervious to possible economic collapse. God wants to help us be free, but those who don’t remember and learn from history are bound to repeat it.

                  ¶ They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
                  34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

                  1. KimH


                    Stephanie, I agree with you 100%.. Its a difficult thing to look at it honestly and clearly. Emotions drive so much, both good and bad.
                    I was a child in the early 70s and I could see it happening then as I was listening to the news and hearing my elders talk.. it’s a scary scary moment in time..

                    1. Stephanie Berkey

                      Thank you, KimH, a lot of people can’t see it. That’s why I sited the scriptures I did. Selfishness (sin) blinds us, but thankfully we have a remedy in repentance and God’s help in controlling this pandemic.

    15. Nicholas

      Thank you!

      Thank you for this post. I’m sure I won’t see this, or any thing like it, covered on “The News.”

      1. I’m glad you found it useful. I haven’t seen any updates on this case, but if I do will share them here.