Amish children and spanking
I just read an article by Donald Kraybill which examines Amish and obedience (http://goo.gl/Sb7e7). In the piece, Kraybill explains why Amish use physical punishment to discipline children, citing an Amish mother named Hannah:
Hannah explained that, when children are about two years old, their wills need to be broken. If it’s not done at that stage, she said, they will likely become disobedient, rebellious adults. The spanking helps correct them and “make them nice.” Another mother explained that when children learn to fold their hands at prayer time, they are old enough to be reprimanded with light spanks when disobedient.
The article has been getting some interesting responses. Not everyone in the comments section agrees with the Amish approach to corporal punishment, or even has a favorable opinion of the Amish, for that matter.
Some of the commenters say that they do not or did not use physical discipline with their own children, for example favoring time-outs instead. One remarks that after spankings received as a child, she felt only “resentment”. Another critic writes that “Few parents would brag that they hit their children, but change the word to “spank” and suddenly the behavior is fine.”
At the same time a number of responders commend the Amish approach. A mother of five states that “Without discipline, children will fail in life, period.” Another cites a bad experience at a restaurant, sitting next to a family with two extremely disruptive children. “For too many children today, a little Amish-style discipline would be a very good thing,” notes the commenter. “Children need to learn that the world does not exist to satisfy their selfish whims.”
Amish feel that spanking must be done with the right motives and state of mind, as Kraybill explains:
Parents are quick to say, however, that spanking and other forms of physical discipline should never be done in anger or frustration. The child should understand the reason for discipline so that “punishment ends on a happy note, sweet and forgiving,” says Naomi, a mother. She adds that because correction ultimately “leads to happiness … [discipline] must be the result of our love for the child’s happiness, both now and in the hereafter.”
Parents out there, what do you think?
Spare the rod, spoil the child?
Or is physical discipline taking things too far?
And: read more on Amish child discipline, including punishment in Amish schools.
Christ never told us not to spank our children? You do understand that Chrust and the Father are one correct? “Spare the rod and spoil the child” also the Bible says that he who spares the rod of correction HATES his son. God disciplines us (sometimes harshly) all the time.
Response to Stephanie: Use of the Rod
With sheepherders centuries ago, rods were used to GUIDE the sheep, not hit them. This is what is meant in the Bible: Spare the rod (don’t guide or teach [meaning discipline]) and you would hate your child.
Again, discipline does not have to be physical; there are many other ways. I see a multitude of primary caretakers who do not even give non-violence a try, or if they do, they will attempt it a few times & then go back to the old ways of hitting in one form or another. Hitting merely teaches hitting. I remember this one mother who was spanking her child all the while telling him “I’ll teach you not to hit your brother!”
The Rod in Hebrew
Hello. I am a native Hebrew speaker. With that said, I can say that the “rod” mentioned in those verses is obviously referring to something more akin to the American “switch” than the shepherds staff. The former, being referred to in those verses, was usually comprised of a thin olive shoot that grows almost perfectly straight from the roots of an older olive tree. Usually, these are pruned every couple of years, or they threaten to interfere with the parent tree from which they are sprung. This, of course, doesn’t mean that modern day parents should switch their kids, but I am a “stickler” (no pun intended) for precision when we translate other languages. Secondly, I agree with the person who rejected the dichotomy that too many Christians make between the “loving” God of the New Testament, versus the “strict” “vengeful” God of the Hebrew Bible (the Christian “Old Testament). Even the name “Old Testament” conveys the idea of the supersession of the one by the other. This would be a foreign idea to Jesus own listeners, for the the Hebrew Bible was the their only Bible…the “New” not being completed until nearly 50-60 years later.
In League With Mother Nature
I consider the spanking of a child’s bottom (with hand, hairbrush, slipper or the like) to be a perfectly natural form of educative correction. My own childhood featured only the threats of a spanking, leaving me punished instead by the withdrawal of affection. This was hardly the best way for me to properly learn the critical lesson of Actions & Consequences.
Instances of stealing, lying, being rude on the phone, and recklessly playing with matches should’ve seen me taken across either my mother’s or my oldest sister’s lap for a sound bottom warming, but no. At age 14, I never got so much as a smack for having set paper airplanes on fire in the basement of our new home.
An honest-to-goodness fire did take hold only hours later, and while my foolhardy self-amusement was never identified as the cause (the fire department had to be called, and repairs to the house took several months), I was clearly deserving of meaningful punishment. My bottom should’ve been warmed across my mother’s knee, but my only ‘corrective consequence’ was the lingering guilt I felt.
I believe my emotional development stalled in my teenage years, and I feel it had much to do with the deserved spankings I never got. Child spanking is consistent with an abiding belief in personal accountability. I was raised in a loving family environment, but I should’ve been given the developmental choice due any well-loved boy or girl: to either behave or be spanked.
So, how many of you using your interpretation of The Bible to justify using physical force on your child wear blended fabrics (i.e. cotton/poly blends etc.) or how many of you eat seafood. Both of these actions are abominations. It’s funny how you pick and chose which passages to follow. How convenient. You spankers will pay for what you’ve done one day. I understand that some of you who have been spanked claim to be thankful for the way you were treated. Some of you feel it was what was right at the time & it was for the best. This is a function of your brain to protect and rationalize the abusive actions of your parents. It is very common.
“Eweguyz”, leaving the meat of this discussion beside for a moment, either have the courage to attach your real name to your comments, or save the “clever” screen name for another site. Lame.
The Ends Justifies the Means?
Marlene – Are you kidding me? ‘The ends justifies the means?’ – so if your husband decides to kick you down the stairs, to stop you being ‘cheeky’ to him, or to merely hit you to show you that what you are doing is dangerous – that will be ok ???
Every family IS different. Every CHILD is different. Every adult is different. NONE of them need to be hit or should be hit to help them learn to grow into great and gentle adults.
Iain – children not doing something because of fear of the spanking or of the parent is NOT a good thing on many grounds. Mainly because you don’t learn WHY you shouldn’t do a thing, or should do a thing when you are hit, you only learn to avoid being hit. ie you get more sneaky and never learn the real reasons behind being kind, gentle, caring etc. Now – you look around today – and see where you are. You see children running riotous – now as most children in the USA ie 92% today ARE still spanked, it blows the ‘parents today are too frightened to spank and it’s so obvious in the way the children behave’ ideas out the window.
Here in Europe I do NOT see children running wild, I have lived here for three years now and the only children screaming in the supermarket and shopping mall had fallen …… THREE times in three years doesn’t seem to be a lot of screaming to me. Children are polite, kind, generous as are their parents. If you GIVE your love and gentleness to the children and treat them with respect they will use you as a model and give you respect back. You don’t deserve it just for being older than them.
Parenting actually involves BEING there for your children. Not ignoring them, when home, because you are ‘too tired’. Not palming them off onto grandparents every weekend, or allowing them to go out into the streets to play when they are too young and do not understand how to keep safe. Parenting takes time and energy. That is what parenting is about. It’s about unconditional love – and teaching them how the world works and how they have to act within it.
You shouldn’t be hitting a child and then cuddling it etc. Talk about mixed messages! Your love shouldn’t be conditional, and hitting a child and then hugging it teaches it that ‘love hurts’ – and is normal. Do you REALLY want to teach this to your little daughter – and then find that she thought that when her husband beat her he was really ‘loving’ her ?? Or teach your son that the way to deal with women or children is to hit them rather than help them ??
Thank you for writing this reply, as it saved me a lot of time and effort, and I couldn’t have written it so well.
Something I would like to add is the lack of attention paid to parents’ expectations of kids. Children don’t have ‘tantrums’ and ‘throw fits’ (two phrases I really can’t stand to hear) for no reason, these things happen due to overwhelm and struggling with the situation they are in. And if parents want these tantrums to stop then they need to adjust their expectations. Like taking a young child to a restaurant and expecting them to sit quietly and behave the entire time….totally unreasonable. Some kids can do it, many will struggle. Kids are supposed to move, learn, be free. If they can’t do these things then that’s when the unwanted behaviour will start to flow in. Who knows what sensory triggers are happening too in a warm, stuffy, busy, potentially loud room with a variety of smells. It’s a lot to take in. Also factor in the new food, strange faces, probably a tired time of the day too.
Another example is the supermarket, as that’s where a lot of ‘tantrums’ occur. There may be multiple reasons why a child struggles to be in that environment. An hour in a hard cold seat for starters. Surrounded by brightly coloured items along the shelves that are appealing but can’t be reached. Motion sickness moving up and down the aisles? It is a parent’s job to know what is within each individual child’s capabilities and if the child cannot cope then that is the parent’s fault of misjudgement, not the child choosing to be naughty.
I wonder how many kids get punished because the parent knows they have messed up and want to avoid feeling guilty themselves.
Jesus only used violence once when he wanted to clean the temple and he never used any violence against humans and never beat anybody to taught the true way of life and he told us to follow him so that is enough for me to understand that beating a child in any way and any purpose is never what Jesus taught us to do.
im Abigail and im 16. I thought when I was a child, that I wanted to be the parent that never spanked their kid. now I realize that’s wrong. the bible says you should. that makes it a fact.
Sorry but the Bible says NO such thing !
Dear Abigail – Have you actually read the words where Christ tells us to spank/hit our children ?? No? Then I will tell you that he never DOES ever .. not EVER. He died for all of our sins – not just adults – he died so we could be saved and live in grace. Again – not just for adults – for ALL of us. He warns us of hurting children, telling us that it would be better for us to have a millstone around our necks and be thrown into the ocean if we do hurt them, or cause them to be angry or stumble [ loose faith ]. Now .. being hit causes most of us to be angry and for a lot more of us sadly it causes us to loose our faith too in a loving Father in heaven.
Christ told us that the ‘Golden Rule’ is to love God with all our heart, and then to love / treat one another as we would want to be treated. Now .. I don’t know about you – but I for one don’t want to be hit, and don’t expect to be hit either. I don’t hit other adults when they irritate me, or do the wrong thing, or I want something different. I either ignore their behaviour, or talk about it with them. Just as I would a child. There is NEVER a ‘right’ reason to hit a child or anyone else except in self defence or defence of another.
If you have been told/read about ‘the rod’ – you should know this. It means either a shepherds rod/crook – and they didn’t hit sheep with it, they fought off the prey with it and hitting anyone with that would have cause SERIOUS damage or death. OR … it is the Rod of the Law – which is a whole lot of ‘paperwork’ basically of laws that we should learn and follow. It is explaining how it is right to teach our children right from wrong and about these laws – it’s NOT telling us to hit children.
Please go and read your Bible again, and search hard for Christ’s words about how to spank children – and believe me you won’t find them because they aren’t there! He told his disciples off and told them to ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me!’ – he didn’t say … oh and by the way .. spank those ones in the corner because they have been naughty today !!!!
it is found in proverbs
i am not going to argue with you. this will be my last comment.he who spareth the rod of diceplene hateth his child.
“He who spareth the rod of discipline hateth his child” I agree totally with you Abigail. Only the words do NOT mean hitting. The word ‘discipline’ means to teach not to hit. It’s where the word DISCIPLE comes from. ‘to disciple’ = to teach. This quote means that we are irresponsible if we don’t teach our children the ways of right and wrong etc. As I said before, the Rod of Discipline is ‘the law’.
“1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? Lk. 22.24
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 and said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mk. 10.15 · Lk. 18.17
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.”
If God thinks children are so ‘bad/evil’ whatever – why would Christ tell us we have to BE like a child ??
“6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
What do YOU think Christ was saying here ?? He’s telling us NOT to hurt a child, not to make them lose faith … and hitting them WILL do both of those things.
“10 ¶ Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.”
Yet another warning by Christ against despising/hating/ hurting a child …
Let's be real
First of all, lets get religion out of the conversation, men wrote the bible, not God. It’s just another book. Second: When a child does something wrong a parent needs to teach why it was wrong. If that teaching needs reinforcing for repeat actions a spanking might be in order. They hurt, they are supposed to hurt. If you do it again it is going to hurt you. Easy, logical. Do nothing and let the school take care of it by having your kid arrested for fighting, get a record for assault and destroy their life. Your decision. To many parents are just to busy keeping up with the Jones today to be parents and are always looking for the easy way out. With latch key, day care, camps, and parental obligations for employment and social life it is no wonder they have no idea of how their kid is being raised. Take care of your obligations and you wont be finding so much time to nose into that of another.
No Reason For It!
@ Pete: And you cannot figure out ANY other way to discipline a child without putting your hands on them? So you take the easy way out & hit them? There’s no reason for that. I’ve raised, assisted in raising, & taken care of many, many children all without ever laying a hand on them. They’ve responded just beautifully without spanking. I have no problem teaching them what’s right & what’s wrong.
By all means Pete, let’s keep the bible out of it. Let’s get real as you say. Let’s look into the fact that hitting is hitting no matter how old you are ~ 80 or 8 yrs old. It doesn’t teach a thing except a lot of things you really do not wish to teach a child. I presume you know that when you are being hurt, or in fear of being hurt ie spanked, you don’t learn anything, you don’t retain anything, you are in FEAR and that blocks everything out except the pain and the fear…. and the hate too.
I agree, that if you do nothing ie no discipline then yes, children will not be able to grow up knowing right from wrong. However, discipline means to teach and not to hit. Most criminals in jail WERE spanked. Over 92% of all children in the USA today are spanked regularly. Seems like a whole lot of children are going to be growing up and going to jail, and may well be why America has the highest level of prisoners % wise in the world. If you don’t respect a child, do not expect it back. You don’t get it just be being over the age of majority, you have to earn it and give it and demonstrate it. Many adults do not deserve to be respected. I lost the love, respect and trust of my parents from the first time they hit me. I don’t respect or love … or more importantly trust anyone who hits me.
If you cannot teach a child how to live, right from wrong, and how to be kind and gentle without BEING kind and gentle then you need to find the gentle parenting sites …. No one deserves to be hit ever. Unless in defence of yourself or of another. If you aren’t prepared to learn about age related behaviour, how to treat children with respect and love and gentleness, then I hope you never are allowed near them. They deserve much more than being hit.
I have raised my own children who have children now of their own. All gentle, kind and a joy to be around. None of them ever hit and all of them knowing that hitting is wrong.
Your comments are always right on, TealRose. They are always so refreshing & such a joy to read. Please keep commenting!
I am a pediatric nurse & have lots of experience with children. 99 percent of the time if adults will pay attention to and praise children for good behavior and ignore negative behavior, the child will almost always exhibit good behavior, have s high self esteem, do not bully others, & in fact take up for children being bullied. I believe the only time a child should be hit is a spat on the hand, to avoid danger(electric socket, etc.) Only because they are to young to understand why they shouldn’t plug cord in, etc. Catch them being good, even little things like playing well with sibling. Tell them how this is good. Just try it. It works.bettina6656
I Agree, But.......
@ Tina Rogers:
I agree with you, except on one point: One need not hit a child for things such as avoiding danger. As I mentioned previously, I raised, fostered, and was involved in childcare for many years. I am also a social psychologist.
From my experience and my observations, one need only quickly pull back the child’s hand from, say, the electrical socket (which should be covered in one’s own home anyway) and then reinforced with a firm, “NO!, NO!” and/or “Ouchie!”, while placing one’s hand on the child’s hand along with an unpleasant face from the caregiver can work wonders. The child will learn that this is to be avoided.
For those commenters who are angry about having been spanked:
if your parents are still living call and tell them how you feel,
set up a session with a family mental health professional,
work out your problems some place other than this site.
Perhaps it’s because the parents or caretakers are no longer around, or they refuse to listen to the truth or they flat out deny it. Also, some of these people may not be able to afford counseling and they feel that it’s a safe place to vent. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. I posted my comments to educate. If I can save one child, it’s worth it to me.
I will be 60 next week. I am personally more hurt and sad that my parents hit me, than angry. But I AM angry to find out that many people think that hitting children is ‘right’ and ‘fine’ and that it’s Biblical ~ it isn’t. I am even angrier that some people are taking the Bible and hitting children in Christ’s name, when he actually never told us to do such a thing, that he warned us against hurting them, that he told us to become like little children to get into heaven, and that he died for us the sins of us all, not just adults, his Grace is for us all, not just for us adults. And like Jacqueline Smidt above, my comments are to explain how I felt as a child, and how I raised my own children without hitting, and …. how the Bible and Christ never ever tells us to hit children. They are to help others think again … and hopefully this will lead to children not having to go through the pain of being hit, or worse, spanked into submission and have their wills broken. (Whoever thought that children need to have their wills broken, obviously knows nothing about the love and forgiveness and grace of God.)
Again .. one child saved and it will be worth to me too. If I can save more then I will be even happier.
Look at me
I was spanked, hit and yelled at as a child. When I was 11 years old, I slapped my dad. He picked me up by the neck and threw me across the room in return. Would you like to hear about me and my life? I grew up to be a monster. As a teenager, I drank, did drugs, hit my parents when they hit me, and ended up sitting alone in a jail cell at age 22. I turned my life around after years of therapy. I still have anger issues and violent tendencies that I’m working on.
My parents never explained to me why anything that I did was wrong. They just hit me. This made me angry. The anger built up over the years. As my parents’ violence escalated, so did mine. They thought that hitting me harder would break my spirit and make me behave. It didn’t. I went from being a normal child who stole a cookie or drew on walls with crayons to a violent sociopath who fantasized about killing about my parents to end the abuse.
The best part? All of this started with one spanking at the age of 5. I wouldn’t stop crying and screaming that I hated him, so he kept hitting me harder. He only stopped because I bit his leg until it bled. Violence teaches violence. Reason teaches reason. Some people like me have violent tendencies and a spanking could awaken them.
education of children
I am thankful to all comments.
I hope we can learn from each other.
Proverbs are an expression of an ethnic’s tradition,
in this case the “traditional law” or “customary law” of those ethnic groups somewhere…
The ethnic groups may migrate; even to other continents.
Someone told above that in modern Europe, generally they do not hit any more (there are few individual cases, though, as persons have individual experiences and approaches).
The MODERN LAW and modern society have changed their approach from strict disciplining, to loving teaching.
THE CHILDREN ARE GOOD, (self-)confident, prepared for their future, without fear and without psychic problems.
Spanking not necessary
I am a mother of three grown children. I never spanked them. I also have been a daycare provider for 30 years, raising many children in their youngest years.
Being licensed I couldnt legally ever hit a child so I had to be clear with the rules, what would happen if you broke them and was very consistent with following through with this.
Children need structure and boundaries. But most importantly, they need love and respect. I never had a problem.
When I was a kid, my parents spanked us with a belt, but ONLY as a last resort. I don’t recall it ever hurting, it just was the idea of it, crossing that line, that was what “corrected” us kids. I think that’s what’s really lacking these days, a sense of definite responses to a kid’s actions (boundaries). I think most Amish wouldn’t go too far with spanking – it’s just “old school” discipline.
On "Rod" in Hebrew, and Dividing Jesus from YHWH
Hello. I am a native Hebrew speaker. With that said, I can say that the “rod” mentioned in those verses is obviously referring to something more akin to the American “switch” than the shepherds staff. The former, being referred to in those verses, was usually comprised of a thin olive shoot that grows almost perfectly straight from the roots of an older olive tree. Usually, these are pruned every couple of years, or they threaten to interfere with the parent tree from which they are sprung. This, of course, doesn’t mean that modern day parents should switch their kids, but I am a “stickler” (no pun intended) for precision when we translate other languages. Secondly, I agree with the person who rejected the dichotomy that too many Christians make between the “loving” God of the New Testament, versus the “strict” “vengeful” God of the Hebrew Bible (the Christian “Old Testament). Even the name “Old Testament” conveys the idea of the supersession of the one by the other. This would be a foreign idea to Jesus own listeners, for the the Hebrew Bible was the their only Bible…the “New” not being completed until nearly 50-60 years later. Any teaching against the unity of the deity, and all that that entails…especially, unity of character throughout the whole of the Bible, would be considered heresy by early Christians, all of whom were native Israeli Jews.
Amish children and spanking
Rebellion against authority is deeply rooted in the heart of the child. Retrospectively, I realized it, yes, I’m a sinner from the beginning. I also had my terrible twos. My parents acted as a loving team. They spanked my bare butt as long and intensively as required until my devilish furor, aggressiveness and self-will were finally broken.
This was child-rearing in a really biblical manner. I had to submit and the spanking procedure was lasting until I was ready to give in and to submit dad’s and mom’s authority sobbing and shivering. It was still even a subject at the lunch table when I was 45 years old. Then my dad, smiling whimiscally, emphasized the “bare butt” aspect. I was just quite embarrassed, placed in front of my younger sisters and my mom.
Conclusion: After such a beneficial chastisement I always was a good, obedient little boy for weeks, sometimes for months. When I went to school I was perfectly disciplined in the end. Those spankings made me humble and well-adjusted. Spanking works wonder, a kept biblical promise now and in future. I’m a believing Christian and so I’m profoundly convinced that Amish parents do the best for their children just as my parents did for me. I’m deeply grateful to my dad and mom for the loving spankings I got!
Andrew: Quite obviously your parents were bullies. Consider the “bare butt” spankings. You said that your parents spanked you “long and intensively”. As well, you were physically punished until you were “sobbing and shivering”. You were also embarrassed when spanked with a bare bottom in front of your siblings and mother.
This is far from discipline in a biblical manner. If you read my previous comments, you will find that discipline means to teach, not punish. I never raised a hand to the child I raised and she is a very well-mannered Christian. I used non-physical means of discipline with her. Her will never needed breaking. In fact, I use non-physical means of discipline with all children that I care for or work with and it works wonders. My two siblings also used non-physical discipline with all of their children and they are well-adjusted, productive adults.
If your parents could not find any other way to discipline their children without physical means, they need to re-think the meaning of parenting. If you ever have children, I surely hope that you reconsider your parents’ manner of discipline and the effects it can have on the psyche of children. It can cause aggression, depression, low self-esteem, as well as other negative effects. Is this what you wish for your children?
Amish children and spanking
Dad and mom were very affectionate. They gave me security and were the very reverse of “bullies”. I’ m very sad about this comment. There were times (moments), when I was between 2 and 5 years old…then I was a cheeky rascal, breathing fire and brimstone, a petty tyrant, a real sinner. This behaviour required “bitter medicine”. What else?
And believe me, this medicine worked wonder, no Ritalin or other drugs were needed. It was a battle of will and a very important experience that I never could win this battle. I had to give in, not my parents. Finally my will, aggression and defiance were broken, I had to submit Dad’s and Mom’s loving authority. What seems to be the trouble? A sore butt, a good, obedient boy, respecting Dad and Mom anew? Not a bit, the problem today is the tyranny of children against their seemingly “helpless” and “powerless” parents. What a shame!
Firstly, I apologize for calling your parents “bullies”. I’m sure that they did display affection and had other good qualities as parents. I should have said they displayed “bullying behavior”. Perhaps that does not sit well with you either; however, it is the truth.
You seem to think that children are born sinners; they are not. Parents need to model appropriate behavior and shape their children’s conduct. The problem today is not helpless and powerless parents. The problem is children not receiving any discipline at all for a myriad of reasons.
While I agree that some children in this country are over-prescribed drugs, perhaps the true reason you did not need Ritalin or other medications is that you were not ill at all; not because you were punished as you were. There is still a place in this world for these medications.
As I mentioned previously if a husband feels that his wife has sinned is it all right for him to strike her? Of course not. That would be a case for the law. In the same way, it is not all right for a parent to strike a child; it is just that the law has not caught up with this reality.
If parents cannot find an appropriate non-physical way of disciplining their children without striking them (out of the millions of choices there are), they don’t deserve to have the pleasure and responsibility of being parents.
Amish children and spanking
many thanks for your apology! Sometimes sad but always tough.
I think, it’s a big difference between universal truth and interpretive dominance.
Proverbs 13:24 Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.
Proverbs 20:30 Blows that wound cleanse away evil; strokes make clean the innermost parts.
Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Proverbs 23:13-14 Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.
Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.
Proverbs 29:17 Discipline your son, and he will give you rest; he will give delight to your heart.
The Bible is a confession of faith and a testimonial of successful child-rearing. It contains the parenting experience of thousands of years. Biblical truth. In my opinion, psychology has become a “surrogate religion”. There’s no reason for moral supremacy. Too many doubts and contradictions. No balance of evidence. Too much 60-years anti-authoritarian ideology. In contrast the vital experience of real human beings. Result: Well disciplined, respectful and obedient children. I think the wonderful spanking Amish people deserve well and truly to have the pleasure and responsibility of being parents.
I disagree with you wholly on your last comments. There is study after study demonstrating what I have said. Moral supremacy? Where did that notion come from? “Sixty-years anti-authoritarian ideology”? Please explain.
Amish children and spanking
I don’t trust studies, they’re sponsored, I don’t trust statistics, they’re sponsored and forged according to the favored results. Pharmaceutical industry is anxious to sell Ritalin and similiar drugs. The psychologists are anxious to attract many unsure parents. Their undisciplined children are pathologized and so the “psychos” have to work clinically with them. It’s only big business, nothing else. The ideology of the mid 60’s (mental collective awareness) is the fertile ground floor for this kind of business.
Trust the Scripture!
Now, I have nothing more to say, to add or to explain.
Kind and respectful regards!
Psychological studies are rarely sponsored. They are funded by grants through taxpayer monies. Yes, certainly statistics can be forged to gain the favored results, but that is far from the norm and that is because these studies are reviewed for accuracy and validity.
You cannot always trust the Bible either. It has been rewritten at times in certain places to fit one’s own agenda. For instance, were you aware that the Apostles’ names were changed in medieval times due to the Crusades when they went into battle and attempted to take back Jerusalem? The Catholic Church thought that it would be easier to persuade people to fight if they thought the enemy was evil and not the people that the disciples came from.
Judas Iscariot: Yehuda
Andrew and Phillip remained the same
There are many other instances as well. You don’t have to reply to this; however, you really need to open your mind to other possibilities, Andrew.
It is really very simple – either you like the Bible and do what it says, or you don’t. Trying to play “scholar” to match up the Bible to 20th century western values is just fraud. The spanking group provides Bible truth. The other group’s opinion matches the platform of the Church of Satan. Look it up yourself and see. Christians should not waste time debating the Bible with those who clearly detest it. Christians don’t try to use force to meddle with the lives of others and to make them conform, but the other group seems insistent on coercion or trying to use the government to force anti-Bible values upon those who aren’t in their camp. This is the age of satan, we may as well boldly identify the members of his army and treat them accordingly. They do not deserve our ear or our respectful obedience.
Our Heavenly Father gave us brains to think with, not to question HIS word, but in this case to carefully consider what might be devastating to a child. Anyone who would cause undue psychiatric problems, physical scars, or the passing of these things on to his/her own children is a person who needs to learn new ways. And, as you’ve most likely read, there have been a number of places in the Bible that have been altered to fit one’s own agenda. This is fact, not a debate.
I never played “scholar” and I do not “clearly detest” the scriptures. What I have written is proven truth and best for the child. If you and others are blind to that and refuse to even consider any other way, I feel mighty sad for your children.
Finally, I assure you I am not a member of Satan’s army, but rather a born-again Christian who studies the Bible every day.
P.S. It’s the 21st Century, not the 20th Century.
There is No "Our" with Unbelievers
“And, as you’ve most likely read, there have been a number of places in the Bible that have been altered to fit one’s own agenda. This is fact, not a debate.”
“Our Heavenly Father gave us brains to think with..”
There is no OUR, the young lady is mistaken.
“You cannot always trust the Bible either.”
Looks like we have a “smart” lady preacher infesting these comments..that type is all the same, obsessed with their lack of authority, thinking they can take control with a bunch of words because people are too kind to treat them as they deserve.
“Finally, I assure you I am not a member of Satan’s army, but rather a born-again Christian who studies the Bible every day.”
I haven’t yet met one of his army who was willing to confess. The good news is that she is unlikely to convert any Christians to her special system.
Christians, never trust anyone who has contempt for the Bible, who thinks their special “brain” is the leading light of humanity. My country, America, is filled with these types. Most often they are United Methodists Episcopal, UCC, or some other apostate denomination. There is no OUR with them, they are on their own with their own master (you know who).
You are wholly mistaken, and your comments are weak and absurd. Indeed, it is sad when you place your many allegations against me without any proof. Therefore, I need not continue to defend myself. The Lord God and Jesus know the truth. I am done answering you.
My thoughts on spanking
Anything can be overdone and I think that its wrong for a parent to take an object to a child’s butt. Nor, do I agree with bizarre statements like “it is necessary to break the will of a two year old child”.
I do think though that when it is properly used that spanking has a place in disciplining and raising children.
I was probably spanked a total of six times growing up. However, the spankings I got I remember because my parents were determined to teach me a lesson. I don’t believe they were abusive in any way. Yet, when I was spanked it always left a big impression.
An example was one time when I stole something at school when I was about eight. My mother made me return the item (a paperweight) to the principal and apologize. After this though, mom took me home and when my father got home he waited until after dinner and marched me to the living room. He explained what I had done to my two siblings and than made me strip to my underwear. He put me over his knee and spanked me in my briefs until I cried and shed tears. Sure it was embarrassing and it hurt too. But it was big lesson for me and the other kids.
Seriously, I think that is exactly what is needed today in a lot of homes. A parent that is willing to hold children accountable and if necessary embarrass them a little bit.
Spanking has a place
I agree with Mark. Spanking is just one tool in the box, and it can be overdone or used inappropriately. We were hardly ever spanked. My parents talked to us about everything, redirected, gave praise and encouragement, and enforced natural consequences. And for those rare times when we outright rebelled, the whip was always hanging on a nail in the pantry. We would be calmly told to get undressed. After a brief lecture, we’d be whipped naked, and quite hard and long. It was scary, it was embarrassing, and it HURT! But it broke our rebellion. All of us turned out very well and are quite successful. None of us hate our parents; we remain a loving family. The grandchildren are being raised much the same way. When it comes to discipline, you just need to choose the right tool for the job.
New Psych knowledge should end spanking
Enough research on spanking now exists that American Pediatric Assn has recently stated all spanking is harmful. My own childhood experience gave me a serious life long addiction something trauma does when it changes children’s brain structure. Many like me have the same experience and addiction. Ritualized forced intimate touch involved in disrobement for spanking caused life threatening fear, body humiliation and sexual arousal all at the same time, and the parent was acting out their own addiction from their own sexual abuse trauma because their parents had spanked the same way. This is how the cycle of abuse continues. The victim feelings of rape and this spanking treatment are the same. Sexual abuse is real but excused because a parent is just punishing. The Amish and other religious believers are not immune to the problem.
What brought me here today was a phone call from my daughter who has an Amish young lady who babysits her one year old girl. My daughter loves this young lady as so do we.
Today, my daughter kept hearing her baby crying upstairs in her nursery where the sitter was with the baby. My daughter checked the webcam and saw her thumping the babies bare bottom and saying, “ lie down.” My daughter watched in disbelief and shock not believing what she was witnessing until she ran upstairs and confronted her sitter about it. She asked her why she was thumping her and the girl apologized and said the red marks would go away.
My daughter was calm and spoke to her clearly then sent her home.
She called me and we talked about this. I observed that the young lady did not believe she was doing anything wrong. She also is aware of the nursery camera. Also, the baby loves her dearly as does my daughter and her husband. We all love her. I explained to my daughter that the Amish teach from their experiences and beliefs and though I do not approve of this thumping to make a baby submit to a nap we have to try and understand why she did it. We know the positives of having her sitting with our baby. She is a good person and a good Christian but maybe she needs to have my daughter go over her rules for discipline concerning her child. I wanted to read about the Amish and their discipline beliefs and in reading everyone’s comments I understand that all of us are raised with different disciplines and beliefs. There is no perfect parent. We all have to do the best we know how in rearing our children and pray to God for guidance and direction. However we decide to discipline our children we should, in my opinion, explain why we had to discipline them. I was spanked growing up but not often. I spanked my children but not often. I didn’t have to. I always explained why I had to use this type of discipline. It always grieved me to spank them but I have my own personal beliefs about it and my children are grown with children of their own and all good, healthy, happy people of which I feel so blessed to witness. I am thankful they do not hold it against me for spankings I felt were necessary. I agree that positive reinforcement of timeout or restrictions of favorite playtime etc would be easier for everyone because, for me, it was difficult spanking my children. Parenting is not ever easy. As parents we are always directing our children in life. It only ends with our last breath. I think we can all learn from each other and hope that in that understanding learn to forgive an act that innocently is a teaching that is normal for some people and not for others. We each can set the rules for employment, in detail, so that there are no surprises or misunderstandings that cause damage for everyone. My hope is that my daughter will come to a solution with understanding and forgiveness and remember her love for this young lady and the fact that maybe she did not go over this very important subject concerning her baby. Peace and love to you all.