“Amish & Mormon”: 8 Things That Caught My Eye In The Latest Video
“I feel like one thing they learned, is they could stay culturally Amish, and doctrinally be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”
That is an LDS church member speaking about 3 Ohio Amish convert families – in a new video titled “Amish Latter-day Saints: Blending Two Worlds into One”.
This appears to be an expanded version of the original, roughly 20-minute video (nearly twice as long) which we saw back in April.
You’ll find the new video at the end of this post.
This one tells the story of the Weavers, Troyers, and Hochstetlers in greater depth.
That includes more on the children’s experience, excommunication, and struggles after they lost their businesses as a result of their faith decisions.
In the original post, I wondered if the first video might be intended as a recruiting film to show other Amish a pathway out of the church.
I think it’s most definitely something of that nature, and this new extended video seems to make that more clear.
That’s not a knock and also not surprising; the LDS church with its mission program is one of the most visibly-proselytizing churches in the American religious tapestry.
Amish vs Mormon
Here are eight things that jumped out at me in this latest video:
1. Life takes you to unexpected places – Raymond Weaver never saw himself as a candidate to leave the Amish church behind: “We were probably some of the last people you’d have expected to leave the church.”
Paul Hochstetler, on the other hand, self-describes as a rebel, and someone who was frequently balking at church rules.
2. Managed exit – The 3 families had to be careful to reveal their new membership at the right time. The Weavers continued attending Amish chuch after baptism in the LDS faith. Others refrained from telling their children.
The shock of excommunication and hardship of shunning would’ve doubtless compounded the difficulty of leaving. “We knew that if it got found out too early, the life we knew would end.”
3. “Pure” – The word “pure” is used at least twice in the film to describe the Amish. Maybe purity is a concept especially emphasized in the LDS church. It struck me as a bit strange. Over-idealizing?
4. Emotion – Like in the first film, many speakers here, both former Amish and original LDS – a half-dozen at least – are moved to tears when telling their stories. No doubt a powerful experience for all sides.
Although preachers in Amish church may become moved by emotion, you don’t typically see Amish giving this sort of moving emotional testimony about their faith journeys and convictions.
I think this free (encouraged in the LDS church?) avenue for emotional expression might be another attractive element for potential converts from the Amish.
5. The children were effectively “shunned” – Non-baptized Amish are not excommunicated and placed in the Bann (shunned). They can’t be excommunicated from a church they’ve never joined.
However what the children describe is effectively a type of “shunning”: their friends and cousins in the Amish are not permitted to play with them.
Sometimes you hear of situations where non baptized youth and children are described as having been shunned – this type of situation is probably what that refers to. It’s unofficial, but a painful change in behavior towards people – little people in this case – nonetheless.
6. Amishman interviewed – This video opens with an on-camera interview with an Ohio Amishman talking about strong points of Amish life and church. I wonder if he knew he’d end up in this film.
7. The more the merrier – The fact that three Amish families are involved made it easier. Little Martha Weaver explains how it would’ve been if the Troyers hadn’t joined: “Then we wouldn’t even have them to play with.” Her father Raymond affirms this.
8. Planting a seed for more Amish converts – As I mentioned above, this is an inspiring story no doubt for current LDS church members, and also a soft outreach vehicle to other potential Amish converts.
The messaging, especially towards the end, supports this: “It’s possible to leave the Amish faith and still be Amish if you want to” says one woman.
Another expresses a desire for more mission work among the Amish. They paint a picture of a “transition” period. LDS life is described as “simpler”, without so many rules.
One standout quote I noted in the original video – “I’ve always felt that if we could take the Amish culture, and the Latter-day Saint culture, and bring them together, it would be the perfect culture” – is repeated here.
More to come?
This video debuted less than a week ago, and so far has significantly fewer views – about a couple thousand, vs. over 100,000 views for the other – but the first has had a 6-month head start.
The Amish are among the least evangelical of American religious groups, for various reasons. Other churches are much more aggressive with their outreach.
In this case, a chance encounter and a well-placed Book of Mormon opened the door for three Amish families to change churches. Some churches, not just the LDS denomination, often do see the Amish as a potentially rich mission field.
Will we see similar videos in the months ahead telling of other Amish families joining the LDS church? Recently we revisited the story of the Ohio Seventh-Day Adventist church largely comprised of former Amish.
Perhaps we’ll see a similar dedicated congregation arise for formerly (though still “culturally”) Amish people who are now practicing Latter-day Saints?
Please!!!
there is NO WAY that Amish and Mormon are even close! the Amish need to check themselves on this one. Mormons are all about money and status. this I know from first hand experience.
Wonderful video
Moral purity is emphasized in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (nicknamed Mormons). Strong belief in Jesus Christ, and an emphasis on families is attractive to many people throughout the world. We believe in the mandate of Jesus given to his apostles before his ascension to go unto the world and preach the gospel. As far as I know there isn’t any active missionary work taking place among the Amish, but God calls individuals and families by His own means to learn about the Restored Gospel and the blessings contained therein. I invite any and all to find out more; visitors are always welcome at Sunday meetings.
Thanks Rozy for the response on the “purity” topic. I didn’t know if that was a word often heard in LDS circles, but noticed it a couple times here – once in reference to the Amish in general, and once to the children which volunteers from the church helped teach.
Impossible to be Mormon and Amish
These people seem totally “double-minded”, and that’s dangerous spiritually. Mormonism by it’s very nature is in serious conflict with the Amish faith and belief. They mix like oil and water and have very little in common. Of course there are many good Mormons, decent people, committed to their belief system. That is not the issue. Their belief systems are opposites in many ways. It’s impossible to be both Amish and Mormon. It is possible to be Amish and evangelical or Amish and charismatics, however. There are hundreds of them, and they remain a part of the Amish community in reasonably good standing. Mormonism, however, is another belief entirely. These ex-Amish will be swallowed up by the larger Mormon enterprise, and soon will be like all the rest of them.
SO True
this comment is so true and explains it accurately – thank you – wish I could of put it words as well as you did – thanks again
It is Possible & Being Done by These Families
These three families are proving it is possible to be both. Amish beliefs are similar in the belief of the two greatest commandments: love God and others. The biggest differences are non-resistance and shunning, especially of family members. Those are huge differences, but the intent is very similar: to put Jesus Christ and His teachings first.
I am Amish. Please don’t claim these people are still Amish! It is NOT possible to be both!
Amish Culture
Hello Yoder in Ohio, I consider myself partly Amish (my heritage and culture). I honor my many Amish ancestors, some who were of the Yoder family and some from Ohio. I also belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I was referring to the culture more than the religion, but they are mixed into each other so much with both of these ways of life that it’s hard to separate them completely.
I’d say one more important difference may be the belief that families can be together forever, sealed as families in heaven. Would you please comment on what the Amish view is on that?
What is the Amish view of families being “sealed” forever in heaven? Well, we don’t use the word “sealed” unless it’s sealing an envelopes, sealing a driveway, and so on, but I will be honest and say we have no teaching that families will be “sealed” in Heaven. Naturally we hope to be UNITED in Heaven. This would seem oddly opposed to the FLDS practice of breaking up families, would it not?
Can you provide scripture (from The Bible, not the book of Mormon) that would give any suggestion of families being “sealed” in Heaven?
Mr. Yoder, why bring up fundamentalists? We’re not discussing that faith. I sense you are not really interested but just want to bash. Things don’t just happen in heaven. Even Jesus was baptized by proper authority. Sacred ordinances like this are required to be part of His family in the eternities. These doctrines are holy, sacred, and easy to misunderstand, unless approached respectfully and prayerfully. He refers to us as His children all through the Holy Bible. The truth is there for those who cultivate eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand.
The FLDS surely represent a branch of the LDS church? I strongly disagree with some of the practices of the extremely conservative Amish, but still recognize them as being part of the Amish “Household of Faith” despite that. In my line of work I have met & talked with a number of FLDS and LDS people. I am aware the two sects do not see eye to eye, but both are Mormons, as members of both sects have told me.
And my question as to where we find this in scripture is still unanswered.
Best to You
I have already referred you to the Saviors own words. Apparently we simply interpret them differently. Best wishes to you and yours, Mr. Yoder
What you did was side-stepped the questions.
Do Mormons believe their god was once a mortal man?
Where in the Holy Bible do we read that families are “sealed” for eternity?
The first can be answered yes or no. The second could be answered with a scriptural reference if there is indeed one.
Again, when asked a question about my faith, I try my best to give a clear answer in black and white and if unable to answer, I don’t hesitate to clearly say “I don’t know.” (For I don’t know everything but am open to learning.)
But I am assuming this thread might as well be dropped. It’s clear we don’t see things the same way and we don’t need to turn this into a debate. You and yours are in my prayers.
FLDS
FLDS are not members in truly good standing of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They may claim to be and I’ve had friends among them who lie to their selves about their standing in the church, but they are subject to excommunicates if the church becomes aware they are involved with plural marriages.
Why not excommunicate the Mormon Prophets who practised polygamy
Since Mormons think its okay to baptize people who are dead, why not excommunicate their dead prophets who practised polygamy? Especially since Mormons who practise polygamy today are excommunicated for doing so. Why not clear up the whole mess, and just excommunicate the dead prophets who practised it and told others to do the same. If you can baptize dead people you should be able to excommunicate dead people, too. Why not?
That’s a very interesting idea, T., and I wonder what the answer might be from the LDS point of view? But just like baptism after death won’t make any difference whatsoever to the deceased because they are dead, excommunication after death won’t make a bit of difference either. But it’s worth thinking over…
Why would we excommunicate people who were doing what God told them to do? Would you kick Abraham out of heaven? Or Jacob, Leah, and Rachel?
Jesus taught, “For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” ~ Matthew 12:48-50, The Holy Bible
After reading through the comments, it would appear that shunning & non-resistance are not even the biggest differences. Frankly, I am no longer able to see Mormonism on the same plane as basic Christianity! This has been very informative.
Your later comments turn this particular comment into blatant deception.
Numbers, and social support
The Mormons are very aggressive proselytizers and push a high birthrate, because their theology states that numbers of people are key. They even go so far as to “baptize the dead” – they go through death records, and “baptize” dead people they’ve never met, of any religion or culture. All to swell the number of “Mormons”. To attempt to convert a people with one of the highest birth rates in North America, you can see why the Amish would be attractive convert targets – if you can convert one, they’ll make 10 more, who each make 10 more, etc. Less hard work for the missionaries trying to convert grown adults person by person.
The Lord Jesus Christ said to his apostles that He would make them fishers of men and commissioned them to do missionary work (feed His sheep). Would it be just to refuse this opportunity to everyone who ever lived? Baptism for the dead is mainly for our ancestors and is just like missionary work here; they all have a choice. Would you deny them that?
Baptism for the dead?!
I simply cannot understand why or how anyone would feel baptism for the dead is valid! It would be like getting a credit card or government benefits for someone who died! When that last breath has been taken, it is finished. End of story.
What About People Who Die Never Hearing About Jesus?
Mr. Yoder, what do you believe is the fate of people who died never hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ? They never had a choice in this life to be baptized, so do they go to hell?
That is in the Hands of God, but I do not believe the dead can request baptism nor affirm their belief in Christ. This would be one of my objections to infant baptism as well — it is not a conscious, willful acceptance of Christ as one’s Savior.
So, that sounds like you believe innocent people can end up in hell simply because they didn’t hear the gospel. How is that just or merciful?
I agree it is in His hands, but believe we are the hands and feet of Christ when we do His work.
No, that is not what I believe. I believe that is in the Hands of the God I serve. I would never presume to tell Him what is just or merciful because I trust Him and His Judgment implicitly. Nothing in the Scriptures tells me baptizing the dead is valid.
The Holy Bible tells me that God is just and merciful, that leads me to believe he wants the opportunity of baptism to be offered to everyone who has ever lived.
The key difference here seems to be between LIVING and LIVED.
Baptism is NOT salvation.
Stephanie, If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting that baptism is salvation? Salvation is first. Baptism follows. IF THE DEAD are to be baptized in your organization, dead people who can’t believe, then something is really off. Baptism is not salvation. Baptism is for those who are already born again. Baptism is not for unbelievers or dead people. It’s that simple.
Miller, you said it so well!
Spirits in Prison
Hello Miller from Canada,
We don’t baptize the dead, but are baptized for and behalf of the dead. We believe when Jesus died he organized missionary work in the spirit world, to preach to those in spirit prison. We do the ordinance in case they first believe, as you say, then accept our baptism in their behalf, if they so choose. See 1 Peter 3:18-20
Stephanie there are no innocent people, that is the curse of being born into a fallen world, all born in the flesh are born to hell, unless they are born again spiritually and follow Jesus. That is the mercy and Grace of God you ask after. Jesus Christ in the flesh.
But you can best answer from your own life choices, why unlike many who will never hear the Gospel message, you had the opportunity to hear, and yet you still chose to turn your back on the salvation offered by God through Jesus Christ, and instead chose to follow a man made idol of a god, a mortal man exalted to godhood after the fashion of the pagans. A god of Joseph Smith’s own imagination and making. Why Stephanie, why?
RE: Baptism
Adam wrote: “Stephanie there are no innocent people, that is the curse of being born into a fallen world, all born in the flesh are born to hell, unless they are born again spiritually and follow Jesus.”
==
This is incorrect. Paul taught the Roman Saints that as Adam’s transgression brought Death and Hell upon mankind, so likewise did the resurrection of Christ bring the free gift of salvation to all mankind. (Romans 5) The resurrection of Christ broke the bands of Death and loosed the Chains of Hell. Thereafter, mankind finds themselves guaranteed resurrection, and because of Christ satisfying the demands of justice for all mankind, those who repent and call upon the Father’s mercy in the name of Jesus Christ, in this life, are enabled to establish and maintain a covenant relationship with the Father that prepares them to return to his presence and dwell in His glory.
Jesus Christ initiated the work for the dead with his resurrection. To declare that the Biblical representation of the word of God speaks nowhere of work for the dead is to deny one of the greatest missions of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as the Savior and Redeemer of the world.
That is the mercy and Grace of God you ask after. Jesus Christ in the flesh.
But you can best answer from your own life choices, why unlike many who will never hear the Gospel message, you had the opportunity to hear, and yet you still chose to turn your back on the salvation offered by God through Jesus Christ, and instead chose to follow a man made idol of a god, a mortal man exalted to godhood after the fashion of the pagans. A god of Joseph Smith’s own imagination and making. Why Stephanie, why?
Adam, the end of your post it seems has been mixed up with another person’s somehow. I’ve seen it before by another person. It also doesn’t coincide with the rest of your comments. My other comments on this thread answer the challenges and question posed though.
Mixed comments
Steph,
I copied and pasted the comments to which I was responding to and forgot to delete the remainder of those comments before submitting.
LDS social support may help Amish to convert
The LDS are sometimes more active in social support than other faiths. They run their own canneries and food distribution and social services offices. I’ve known families their LDS church has kept their pantry stocked, rent paid, and lights on, for months or years all told. This level of support may make it more attractive to Amish who fear job loss,lost customers, etc due to faith affiliation change.
Interesting, if that’s the case I can see how that might make it easier, though the typical “Amish DNA” would no doubt push an individual to rebuild their business so that they could stand on their own two feet again as quickly as possible. I might have missed it or blanking right now, but I don’t remember it being mentioned that the 3 families in the video received a lot of material aid (though it sounds like they received a good amount of support in other forms).
Lds supporting converts
My X in-laws were LDS… From my understanding, they don’t help each other like the Amish might, but when my brother in law walked out of the church after getting ahold of information he wasn’t supposed to see, the church offered to support my sister in law, house, cloth, feed and send her & their kids to school and college if she would divorce her blasphemous husband. They pushed her hard! She stayed with her husband.
Ive heard many similar stories, unfortunately.
I doubt very seriously that this will be a good fit in the end for these Spirit loving families.
They'll wake up eventually...
I’ve had Mormons come to my home regularly. I’ve gone to their church services. I’ve spoken to Mormons who have multiple wives and are open about it, instead of hiding it like most do. No, they don’t all have several wives. But the ones who don’t are low status.
Then there is the secret quasi masonic worship that they practice in their temple, which only members have full knowledge of.
Then there’s the sacred holy under garments that they wear to protect them from worldly carnal influences. The list goes on and on..
I think those Amish will wake up when they understand what the future holds for their children. At least I hope so…
The LDS church teaches works based salvation. Believe that Joseph Smith was the prophet, that the book of mormon is the only totally inspired scripture, that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers, that man can be exalted to the position of a god , that Brigham Young taught than Adam was the god of this planet, that marriage continues into eternity and the plural wives of the exalted (god) man will spend eternity in perpetual pregnancy producing spirit babies who will be united with physical babies who will people their planet. The LDS church will promise you the moon, but deliver you to Hell.
RE: LDS "teach"
Bill wrote: “The LDS church teaches works based salvation.”
==
This is incorrect. In fact, the Saints are likely the only Christ-based organization to teach that all mankind are already saved and redeemed because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Bill wrote: “Believe that…the book of mormon is the only totally inspired scripture…”
==
The Saints preach that prophets and apostles are the only authorized oracles to establish the scriptural canon. Without the priesthood authority of God established by the laying on of hands, by predecessors already possessing the authority, no work is authorized by God. Since the translation of the Biblical “records” was not authorized — and it is important to understand what I’m explaining here — nor published by God’s oracles, the Saints maintain that the work can only be “God’s word” as far as it has been translated correctly. Without that catalyst no translation of scripture will ever be worthy of being the work of God. All His works are done according to His Order, not man’s.
The Book of Mormon records were written, assembled, hidden from the world, brought to light in the last days, translated, AND published by authorized prophets. This the claim of the Saints, and this is what makes the Book of Mormon initially compelling to investigate. There is no other work of ancient origin that can make such a claim.
Unfortunately for the Christians, their doctrines cannot allow a work such as the Book of Mormon to even be possible, for their canon of scripture is CLOSED; whereas, the doctrines of the Saints are open to the possibility of not only the coming forth of the Book of Mormon records but also additional records may come forth in the future, and could be added to the canon of scripture among the Saints. The canon of scripture among the Saints is very well OPEN. Because of this primary paradigm, the Saints are rejected by the Christians as fellow “Christians.” Yet there is no other organization on this Earth that heeds to the Order of God established through his prophets and apostles, from any era of time, as closely as do the Saints.
Bill wrote: “that Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers…”
==
The Saints preach what the prophets and apostles have witnessed in scripture. Lucifer rebelled in the Grand Council of Heaven (as witnessed by the Apostle John in his book of revelation) and drew away with him a third part of the host of heaven. The Saints preach that as a consequence Lucifer became the devil. The Saints do not preach that Satan nor his legions are, or ever have been, part of the family of God. The saints do not claim to understand how things transpired or existed outside this mortal sphere of linear existence, where all things are locked to the elements of time and space. The saints can only try to comprehend and describe the things of Eternity from what has been revealed by Gods oracles. What the saints do know is that the powers of darkness are not part of the Father’s kingdom, and certainly are not family.
Bill wrote: “…that man can be exalted to the position of a god…”
==
The saints preach what has been revealed by prophets and apostles. The Plan of the Father was for his children to experience a probationary state where godlike attributes could be experienced and added upon in a forgiving, merciful state of existence. Lucifer and the third part of the heavens which followed him experienced the immediate and Eternal damning nature of the demands of justice without the intervention of God. They were cast out without even a chance to return to the Father’s presence.
The two other parts of Heaven who did not rebel are given the opportunity to live a mortal life, gain a body of flesh and blood, and to increase in knowledge, talents, and understanding that is necessary to not only dwell in the glory and presence of the Father but to also desire such glory rather than a lesser glory. “Behold, this is my work and my glory, to being to pass the immortality and Eternal Life of man.” (Moses 1:39)
Throughout his entire tenure Jesus preached to inspire man, to follow his program back to the Father. The sanctification process provided in the Gospel of Jesus Christ requires great faith, repentance, sacrifice, service to God and fellow man, and obedience to the laws and ordinances that the Savior and Redeemer has provided to his people. They are His works, to bring to pass the Eternal Life of man. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me,” he has taught.
Bill wrote: “…that Brigham Young taught than Adam was the god of this planet…”
==
Whatever you think this means, your assumption is wrong. The saints do not preach that Adam is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who is the One and Only God that the saints worship, and around whom all their devotions are made.
Bill wrote: “…that marriage continues into eternity…”
==
As is reflected in Genesis 1:28 the saints preach that God married Adam and Eve while in paradise, before they partook of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Thus they were sealed together Eternally, not “until Death do [they] part.” Paul taught the importance of this relationship between man and woman when he wrote to the Corinthian saints:
“Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.”
And if “all things of God” then man and woman are ordained to be sealed together as one in the Eternities even as Adam and Eve were sealed together as one in the Eternities. But among the Christians there is no man who possesses the authority to perform such and ordinances on the Earth. Only in the Holy Temples of God is such an authority to perform this sealing between a man and woman possessed by those who administer His works by His holy order and authority.
The things of Eternity cannot be administered by those who are standing on the outside looking in. They are administered by those who are standing on the inside looking in. God’s authority is not “open source” nor “public domain.”
Bill wrote: “…and the plural wives of the exalted (god) man will spend eternity in perpetual pregnancy producing spirit babies who will be united with physical babies who will people their planet. The LDS church will promise you the moon, but deliver you to Hell.”
==
This is simply satire from Hell. It is the fickle conclusion of a man who knows not what he preaches.
Hard to watch
This video was hard to watch on many levels.
Amish and Mormons are Jesus Christ believers – Christians. But what becomes obvious is that the many laws/rules of a church come between the real meaning of Jesus Christ.
Many “English” become enamored by the lifestyle of the Amish – their quaint amicable way, back-in-time attire, living off the land philosophy, charming horse and buggy, and love of family, and support of church community culture. And they are deliberately cloistered.
What is not so obvious regarding the Amish is that there are daily frustrations that are becoming increasingly difficult such as making a living without a computer or cell phone, and state laws that make it short of impossible to dairy farm in some states. So there are visible [at times] feelings of frustration, animosity, fear, and resentment with both church “rules” as well as government rules among the Amish – whether progressive or conservative.
Amish have steadfast resolve that is truly amazing – I would say their families, church and sub-group communities fuel their strength to persevere and thrive particularly through hard times. And there are many hard times.
So what is difficult for me to understand is that factually their families are EVERYTHING TO THE AMISH. Begging the question is if an Amish member is shunned, how immediately obedient the rest of the collective Amish become to form an alliance of distance and literally turn a blind eye as if non existent to their own family member, relative, or fellow church member. I tell you, this is beyond agonizing to be around; I COULD NOT DO IT. Most “English” I know couldn’t be so harsh, cold, and disconnected to their child, family member or relative. And yet the Amish, known for their pure and passive natures, condone and part take in this beyond torture, and damaging mistreatment known as shunning for the chief purpose of controlling another Amish fellow Jesus Christ believer.
I wonder what Jesus Christ would say about shunning?
Please keep in mind the practice of “shunning” varies hugely from church to church! One of my closest friends left our Amish church recently and is not attending church anywhere and he still sees and socializes with his family & friends.The church group these families left DOES take a very strict position on this, but it’s not something all Amish do. I couldn’t!
But still… This is sad. To see these three families roped into the LDS church is sad indeed. If they felt they needed to leave the Amish Church there would have been sounder alternatives.
Hard to Watch
Yoder please forgive me for generalizing; I know better. I should have clearly stated my experience is in connection with the very conservative groups of Amish. Thanks for correcting me.
You were forgiven before you asked. 🙂 Yes, the more hard-line conservative groups have a very different view of things. I also find their view sad and disturbing.
Forgiven
Yoder,
I am a Jesus Crhist believer. I feel the more hard-line conservative groups of any religion can be “sad and disturbing”.
Seeing as how the Bible commands in numerous places the putting out of the unbeliever, the wicked, the fornicator, the adulterer, etc. from the congregation, I’m sure that Jesus is very happy with the obedience of the Amish to His Holy Word. After all Jesus says “if you love Me obey My commands”.
Read 1Corinthians Chpt 5&6, and then 2John 9.
Read 1Corinthians Chpt 5&6, and then 2John 9.
Adam,
I guess you would be able to shun your family member then, and after reading the Corinthians you would be able to sleep at night.
“If you love me, obey My commands” is understood. I don’t see anything in Capt 5 and 6 about shunning “others” much less one’s family as dipicted in this video.
God will be the judge.
Shunning
Shunning and excommunication are practiced in all aspects of human life under different names for infractions of the rules.
In your workplace you get fired, in sports you get dropped from the team, in the military you get dishonorably discharged or shot, you can also get banned, disbarred, jailed, executed, license revoked, disfellowshiped, excluded, blocked, unbefriended, etc.
Bottom line, when you transgress the rules of any organization or social system, there are consequences.
The Amish and biblical response for members who transgress the rules is to shun and excommunicate. If you wish to advocate that the Amish are not allowed to punish their members who transgress, then be consistent and advocate that all of society’s institutions and social structures can likewise not be allowed to punish their transgressors.
Such a stance is called anarchy.
Bear in mind that shunning and excommunication are not permanent, the individual can at any time apologize, repent of their transgression, ask for forgiveness, and be reinstated as a member.
The choice to remain shunned is that of the shunned individual, kindly don’t blame the church for that. The church is always ready and willing to accept the shunned individual back into fellowship.
Shunning
Adam,
Let’s see first you refer me to the Corinthians, then give long dilatation on your take of what Shunning is and as it relates to anarchy. Then end with how it works in the Amish community.
We are all commenting on the Amish families who left their religion and joined the Mormon faith. [Both Anabaptists and Mormons are Jesus Christ believers].
My comment was about shunning as dipicted in the video. I willl state again that I could not shun my child for any reason, and I am surprised that the Amish practice this shunning. I NOW REFER YOU TO YODER WHO IS AMISH; HE WILL GIVE YOU A BETTER UNDERSTANDING.
This statement is not against the Amish. The statement is not against the Mormans.
AC, you criticised the Amish for shunning those who had converted to Mormonism, saying repeated that you could never shun your child for any reason. Would you do it if God commands it?
Seems your answer is no, then you will understand why God chose Abraham and not you, because Abraham was willing to obey God concerning Isaac, whereas you state in rebellious defiance that you will not obey God regarding shunning. Which is perhaps not as horrendous as plunging a knife through your son’s beating heart.
Do you think those who stand in rebellious defiance against the will of God will enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
I think not.
Best you reconsider your stance on shunning and bend your knee to God’s will and not to your own carnal will.
You blab away, preaching and making things up here. You need to go back and read the posts you address. I NEVER CRITICIZED Amish for converting to the Mormon church. My post was about shunning as portrayed in the video. Please take a remedial course in “reading” and “comprehension” – you’re in dire need. Your accusations are unfounded and it’s obvious you like to engage in divisive rhetoric evident in all ther posts you address. And you have no invitation to surmise what I believe.
Time will tell
I wish these people well, but I think it is sad. I wonder if the children will stay Mormon when they grow up.
Sad
After reading I was sad to learn that the Amish joined the Mormon church. They are a cult. God helps these families come to know the truth and receive Jesus as their savior.
false gods
Clearly these Amish/Mormon converts have not yet got to the Mormon teaching that the Mormon god used to be a mortal man that became a god.
The mortal Mormon god is not the eternal God depicted in the Bible who has no beginning or end.
Mormon
Are the Amish aware of the Mormon history with polygamy? That Mormon’s practised polygamy and that some fundalmentalist still believe in it today?
Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint Movement had about 30 wives. He married a 14 year old girl who was told that if she married him, she and her family would have eternal salvation.
Brigham Young, about 55 wives.
Some of these women were lied to, manipulated, even threatened, to marry.
You are required to give 10 percent of your income to the Church.
The Church takes in about $30 to $50 Billion a year from tithing. The Church is very wealthy.
The President of the Church is considered a prophet and that Jesus will return to Missouri.
Why so condemning?
So many sad, misinformed people out there. How many of you have studied The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at the source? Learning about us from Baptists or Lutherans is like going to the Volkswagen dealer and asking about Cadillacs. Will you get the straight scoop? Or will it be tarnished by unfriendly biases? Should I ask the Jehovah Witnesses about your church? Or should I ask your denomination about your beliefs?
We have been asked by our prophet to correctly identify our church as THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, not Mormon. We believe in and worship the living Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was crucified, died and resurrected for us; we believe in the Bible and living prophets (see Amos 3:7). We believe that God has revealed many important things and will continued to do so, to guide His children through mortality and back to our Heavenly Home. We believe God spoke to more than the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. The Book or Mormon (names for the prophet who compiled the records) is another testament of Jesus Christ, a record of God’s dealings with the peoples of the Western Hemisphere. We invite all to investigate–come and see, visit our church services, talk to members and missionaries. Read the Book of Mormon for yourself. Seek the truth and then pray to God to know if it is, indeed true and for you. We don’t condemn any other religion and hope you won’t condemn ours or us. We don’t preach against any other religion and hope you won’t preach against us. Why should you? We aren’t hurting you, or forcing anyone to believe or follow. We have the most open and transparent organization ever.
Dear Rozy
In my youth I nearly joined the LDS church, but a week before my scheduled baptism, I discovered that Mormons worship a god that was once a mere mortal. I man that became exalted and finally a god, your god that you currently worship.
I phoned the bishop and cancelled my baptism, because I don’t care how exalted a man can become, I draw the line at worshipping a god that was never a god to begin with. I believe in a God for all eternity with no beginning or end.
You believe that your husband will become a god one day, not a soul in heaven worshipping the one true God for all eternity, but an actual god, an equal Creator to the one true eternal God. That is a demonic teaching of satan, and the Bible tells us to expose the works of darkness, so yes, Christians will not keep silent about the demonic teachings of the LDS church.
The bishop said to me, “but Christian worship Jesus whom they believe was a physical man.”
I said, “yes, but Christians believe in a God that became a man, and not in a man that became a god. That’s paganism.”
Maybe you would explain to us this teaching that your god was once a mortal man? The God I serve ALWAYS has been and ALWAYS will be the One and Only God. Even if you take away the polygamy and the changing teachings of the LDS church and the other questionable doctrines, this teaching will always leave me convinced Mormonism is teaching false doctrine. I have had conversations with members of the LDS and found them troubling conversations. As for not “hurting” anyone, that I would disagree with. If your church is actively seeking to convert people in other churches who DO teach and uphold Christianity, you are hurting them.
Sons and Daughters of God
Was Jesus mortal? Was he God? Did Jesus teach, “…he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”? ~ John 14:9. And, “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered” ~ Hebrews 5:8
Why did the Pharisees crucify Jesus? Wasn’t it because they didn’t like Him claiming to be God? To this He responded in a way that can answer your questions too, in John 10:33-36
This is the typical response from cult-like groups. If I am asked a question about my beliefs, I answer the question to the best of my ability and as clearly as possible even if that is to say “I’m not sure” or “I never thought about that. Let me think it over.” When someone starts throwing up smoke-screens or avoiding questions or answering sincere questions with questions, red flags go up.
So let me make this as simple as possible: Do you believe your god was once a mortal man?
Mr. Yoder, my response was to share Jesus’ words with you. Is that cult like? If you prayerfully refer to them you can understand these beliefs rather than rashly misjudging them.
My question is still unanswered.
Plurality of Gods
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man…I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form…like ourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man… He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth.” History of the Church vol.6 p.305.
“In the beginning, the head of Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it…. In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods.” History of the Church vol.6 p.308.374
“Here then is eternal life… to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you… To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of God.” History of the Church vol.6 p.306.
So that's a "yes."
Thank you! So the LDS Church does teach that the god they serve used to be a man just like me. Wow. That is sad. I hope & pray the three families in the video — and others believing in this — can see the danger in this teaching !
The God I serve is the ONE True God. He always has been and always will be God.
Many Unknowns
Mr. Yoder, I don’t know about that. My understanding is Heavenly Father was more like Jesus than us, but regardless, Jesus commanded us to be perfect like Heavenly Father and I do believe that is possible in the eternities somehow.
RE:
Yoder in Ohio wrote: “My question is still unanswered.”
==
No, your question was answered. You just refuse to consider what the answer was. Be honest with yourself and stop bearing false witness. You are kicking against the pricks.
Your question exploits the mortal condition we experience in this linear sphere of time and space. If you can show the saints how time and space works in the Eternities then the saints can answer your question by your reasoning. Until then, the saints try to remain true to what the prophets and apostles in all ages have preached.
Why do you exact from the saints that which you cannot answer for yourself either?
The most open & transparent organization?
What a joke! Do you take the readers here as idiots? Just reading through your twists & turns of your replies and your avoidance of certain questions and trying to side-step prickly issues reeks of secrecy and evasion. But let me tell you out of PERSONAL experience — all those secret temple rituals and the withholding of certain LDS doctrines until a convert is too far in to be able to think for himself — this culture of deception runs deeply rooted in LDS culture.
Polygamy
Polygamy is an important part of the history of the Mormon groups,including the main LDS branch. Although not currently allowed, it is part of their doctrine, and it seems they expect it to be practised in Heaven. They seem to attempt to cover this up by trying to rewrite their history, but it’s not working. The evidence is too solid. It was taught and practised by their founder and thousands of their followers for many years, right here in the USA. Although the main group seems to teach that it can’t be practised at this time, not that there is something wrong with the doctrine, but it wouldn’t be appropriate from a legal perspective. Nonetheless, thousands of fundamentalist Mormons still practise polygamy. This has nothing to do with the Amish or their belief system. This is a different belief, a different religion.
Baptism
I really enjoyed the video. What catches me though is how often the two families emphasize the need for baptism or “rebaptism”. I thought the Amish are baptized. Are some baptized as infants? Or do the families in this video feel their original baptism does not count as Amish? I ask because I live about an hour away from “Amish country” in Ohio and travel there quite frequently and thought I had a decent grasp on Amish culture. But in any event, a very interesting video.
Amish don't baptize infants
The Amish don’t baptize infants, they consider baptism only something an adult of sound mind has to freely choose for themselves.
So apparently the Amish don’t baptize DEAD people either. Makes sense to me! Another point in favor for the Amish IMO. I mean seriously? Baptizing the dead?!
Brett as MKJ says, Amish do not baptize infants, this was actually a key point of contention in the formation of the Anabaptist movement dating to the 1500s. Amish today typically get baptized at ages 18-22, though it can happen outside of that range in both directions. The families in the video would have been baptized in the Amish church accordingly; I took Raymond saying that they needed to be rebaptized as referring to undergoing a new baptism in the LDS church.
Some more on Amish and baptism:
https://amishamerica.com/when-do-amish-get-baptized/
https://amishamerica.com/how-do-amish-youth-prepare-for-baptism/
https://amishamerica.com/who-are-the-anabaptists/
Amish men like to have lots of "staff" of women and kids - mormon similar
Amish men like to be at the top of the pecking order with women and kids who basically are “staff”. Not sure if Mormon men are similar but I have heard them say that plural households basically run without them having to be involved in the day to day. So maybe there’s something similar about men wanting to be in charge of a large herd of women and kids who basically work for them . . .
Staff?
You haven’t met MY wife! 🙂
LOL! ;D
LoL! ;D
LOL! ;D
LOL haha! 😀
Sex after you die
Yep. Be a good Mormon, Temple-sealed, and you and your wife / wives will become gods in the hereafter — creating “spirit children” whom you send to your assigned planet so that they may, uhm, become gods.
But the real selling point for many prospective converts might be that this is one of the few faiths that endorses copulation in the afterlife. Making those spirit children, donchaknow.
Andrew Marvell famously wrote, trying to hurry up a young lady so that she would go to bed with him, that life was short and that we should have fun while we can — “The grave’s a fine and private place // but there, I think, none do embrace”. Joseph Smith hadn’t been born when poor Andrew wrote that. If he had had the chance to share his new revelation with Andrew, that fact might have cost us a beautiful poem.
Expression and Tears
The free expression of emotion, particularly emphasized by tears, is culturally encouraged by the LDS church. Having attended an LDS ward for nearly a year during research for a novel I was writing, this was particularly noticable to me, and especially during Fast and Testimony meeting, when people are hungry and tired. To bear one’s testimony with emotion and tears is a way to make one’s experiences more convincing to others and gives a certain amount of weight to the bearer’s experiences. To wit: if you want to be seen as righteous and trustworthy, use tears and emotion when you talk about your religious experiences, particularly if you are a man.
Interesting comment and observations Annette. I think there is a difference between “using” tears and emotions and simply not restraining the natural emotion that might flow out when recounting a powerful personal religious experience. For the most part I didn’t get the sense that the people in these videos was putting out anything artificial in the emotions they were displaying. But I’d agree that tears and emotion do lend a weight to testimony that the same words recounted in a monotone would lack.
The last line of your comment was particularly interesting to me: “…particularly if you are a man.” Does your comment stem from the idea that men stereotypically show less emotion? I could see that being the case when tears and emotion come rarely. But it seems like that “currency” would lose value if deployed with frequency by men.
Hi, Eric.
Interesting comment and observations Annette. I think there is a difference between “using” tears and emotions and simply not restraining the natural emotion that might flow out when recounting a powerful personal religious experience. For the most part I didn’t get the sense that the people in these videos was putting out anything artificial in the emotions they were displaying. But I’d agree that tears and emotion do lend a weight to testimony that the same words recounted in a monotone would lack.
**** Certainly, an overflow of sincere belief or emotion expressed in tears is not at all unusual, and is very powerful. However, simply appreciating that power that can make emotion and tears vulnerable to being “used.” It’s quite possible that the people in the video were being completely sincere in their portrayals. However, I’ve seen far more tears from LDS converts than converts to American Evangelical Christianity and Islam. When we take on new cultures and religious identities, our behaviors tend to reflect those that we are adopting.
The last line of your comment was particularly interesting to me: “…particularly if you are a man.” Does your comment stem from the idea that men stereotypically show less emotion? I could see that being the case when tears and emotion come rarely. But it seems like that “currency” would lose value if deployed with frequency by men.
***** Re: men/women.I think that’s the case. Women are stereotypically believed to more given to emotion and so seeing a woman weeping and crying that she knows the “Church is true” is not quite a powerful as watching a man, who under most circumstances would stereotypically be more reserved, do the same thing. However, I don’t think it loses value within the LDS church. As you noted above, if tears are just a natural overflow of deep and expression and faith (and a particularly powerful one in LDS culture), it’s self-reinforcing in a congregation (or ward). To wit: tears and emotion are evidence of profound religious experience/truth of one’s beliefs, therefore the Church is true, therefore Church members have a greater outpouring of emotion, etc. and it extends through the Church members.
****** As you said above, emotions can be an honest outpouring of religious conviction, but (were I to go one step further), they aren’t evidence of truth. Equally, they can also be used (even by honest, sincere people) as a tool when proselytizing.
Mormons excommunicate too!
According to their own official literature, the Mormons also practise church discipline and excommunication.
After watching the video,”Amish Latter-day Saints: Blending Two Worlds Into One”, I have some thoughts and questions.
What does it mean to be “culturally Amish”? What are the distinctive characteristics that makes a person “culturally Amish”?
“Amish” here is used as an adjective (“Amish” Latter-day Saints). If “Amish” was being used as a noun (i.e. Latter-day Saints Amish), it would be even more challenging to understand how the term “Amish” is being used/defined.
Many individual people try to define what it means to be Amish. I think it is also a definition that is defined by the Amish community as a whole, not just by others. This can be hard to fully understand, because “Amish” is defined by living as well as in a written definition.
The video talked quite a bit about the experiences of the families being shunned. When a person leaves the LDS church, how is that person treated by the LDS church? Do they go through similar challenges these three families went through?
Hello Al in Ky,
When I say culturally Amish, I’m referring to what we choose to preserve from our heritage. It’s mainly unique and intense ways of seeking to live apart from the worldliness that distracts from a focus on Jesus Christ.
For example, I’ve avoided wearing fancy clothes, makeup, and jewelry (never pierced my ears in a culture that finds that very different), and home schooled all of my children from the Pathway reading and writing books. There are other things, like having a strong will to resist oppressive doctrine, like infant baptism, even when persecuted. It’s a tendency to have a mind of our own and a strong will to go with it, except when bending to the Lord Himself.
Thanks for the information, Stephanie. It helps me understand more.
Excommunication or Leaving The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Your welcome, Al. To answer your question about when a person leaves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints; they aren’t shunned by the church as a whole (individuals have their own choice). If they are excommunicated it is usually because of serious sin and they are not allowed to take the sacrament nor hold callings unless they get baptized again (only once and usually a year later if they repent).
Everyone is always invited to attend church and mingle with the others who are encouraged to fellowship everyone with wisdom and brotherly love. (For more information see 3 Nephi 18:25 in The Book of Mormon on lds.org)
Thank you and God bless you and yours.
Baptizing living infants: NO! That’s oppressive doctrine! NO!
Baptizing dead people: Okay. Sure, why not?
I have learned more about the LDS today than in all the years up till now. It’s been an educational albeit very disturbing read. I’ll never look at Mormons the same way again.
Now. Can we get back to Amish America?
What is Not Amish
I can tell you what isn’t Amish: mocking another person’s beliefs.
What is Not Amish
Neither would they appreciate the misrepresentation of another person’s beliefs.
I’m not Amish but come here to learn ABOUT the Amish.
The Sacrament
To learn takes faith, and often a willingness to understand what things are not. The article is entitled Amish & Mormon.
When the Savior taught about the sacrament many people misunderstood Him (John 6:53-66). The more sacred a doctrine is the more the devil twists it into something sinister. Do the Amish believe in and take the Sacrament? If so does anyone know what their beliefs are regarding it?
We do partake of the bread & wine in our Communion services and see them as symbolizing Christ’s body & blood.
Added to question on Communion
… I should add that our observation of Communion also includes the washing of one another’s feet, the Holy Kiss, and the giving of alms.
The Sacrament & Washing of Feet
Thank you, Mr. Yoder,
I appreciate that information. That explains why the washing of feet meant so much to my Grandmother. I visited her church with her and she explained some things, but died many years ago and I couldn’t remember how that was all connected.
The Sacrament & Washing of Feet
She was Mennonite though, so that’s probably similar but not exactly the same.
You are correct — Mennonite are very similar though not the same. Both groups are sub-groups of Anabaptists. Our core beliefs are the same but practices vary.
I was ready to explain foot-washing, then I saw Erik covered it by taking a part of the book “Our Amish Values” for his latest post and foot-washing is explained there. Good timing, Erik! 🙂
My understanding is there are other Christian groups who practice some form of foot-washing, though perhaps not with the regularity of the Anabaptist groups (as part of every Communion service) or with the whole brotherhood participating. For example, one man told me in his church (a small independent church), the church elders wash one another’s feet in front of the congregation but regular members only observe it, singing while this is done.
That is all very interesting. Thank you for explaining it in more detail.
You’re welcome. 🙂
Answers to Some Questions about the Church of Jesus Christ
I’ll attempt to the best of my ability to answer some questions, with the understanding that I do not know all things other than that Christ is my Savior, Redeemer and dear Friend.
To understand the belief that members of the Church of Jesus Christ have regarding God once being a man who lived upon an earth just as Jesus Christ did, you have to understand that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not believe that all the prophets of God are dead. Just as God had prophets in ancient times (such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Noah), members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe that there is now a current prophet walking upon the earth and leading Christ’s church today. Members of the faith do not believe that God has abandoned His people in our modern times but that He continues to provide direction to us through a prophet today. So, modern revelation comes from time-to-time from the prophet who is currently President Russell M. Nelson. Members of the faith believe that President Nelson is God’s prophet and God’s mouthpiece upon the earth today to lead His church. In 1840, while serving a mission for the church, Lorenzo Snow, who was a young 26 years of age at the time (and who later became a prophet of God for the church) gained the insight that “As man is, God once was and as God is, man may become.” While that statement says a lot, it also gets into some very deep theology that we know little about. But it is commonly believed within the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ that God loves all His children and, like any loving parent, He wants us to follow in His footsteps by being obedient to His commandments, growing, learning, developing and becoming perfected in His Gospel as we repent and refine ourselves with the goal of one day becoming like Him. Members of the faith believe as the Amish believe that God has no beginning or end and has always been. But members of the faith also recognize that we do not know all things and not all things are black and white. After all, we are not God but rather human beings with limited knowledge and understanding. We also realize that we can get lost in a lot of black and white doctrine that has not yet been explained to us by God. We know He has his purpose and will reveal pertinent things to us in His own time and as we are able to understand and accept His words. But sometimes people get “lost” in fretting and worrying about things that are not important for us to understand at this time. Rather, it is important to have faith that God has all things in His control and we need to trust in Him to explain and reveal His will when He sees fit and we need to keep His commandments, live a happy life filled with service to others, and walk in faith and obedience.
Regarding baptism for the dead, if you read I Corinthians Chapter 15, verse 29, the apostle Paul discusses baptism for the dead. For Him to discuss this practice is an obvious testimony that it was happening in ancient times as well. This is because what is sealed here upon the earth is also sealed in Heaven. In Chapter 15, Paul also discusses the three degrees of Glory in God’s kingdom and helps us understand that eternity isn’t just a simple Heaven and Hell scenario (i.e. black and white). See verses 40-42. If you would like to build upon your understanding of the three degrees of Glory, I would encourage you to read the Doctrine and Covenants chapter 76 wherein the Prophet Joseph Smith (the prophet of God upon the earth at that time) was given insight from God to enlarge on this information and how it will impact each of us in turn.
And regarding the Book of Mormon, if you read in the book of St. John, Chapter 10, verses 14-16, the Savior refers to “other sheep” in his fold, which members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe refers to people living on the South American Continent at that time. (Remember that Christ lived on the Continent of Asia, not on the Continent of America, yet He was very cognizant of all God’s children and referred to them as His “other sheep” whom He visited after His death.) Hence, members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe that the Book of Mormon is a record compiled by another ancient prophet named Mormon and the book is a record of the ancient people living on the American Continent and records Christ’s visit and works for His people and prophets living there as well as other happenings in their history. It is another testament of Jesus Christ and His activities there. Since God is eternal and loves His children in both ancient times as well as modern times, members of the Church of Jesus Christ believe that He continues to provide insight and revelation as to how we should live our lives. It is believed that this revelation didn’t end with ancient prophets but continues still today. But as Christ himself said in the book of Mark, Chapter 6, verse 4, “A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” For me, this means that we like to believe in the prophets of old but have trouble recognizing a prophet when he is currently in our midst.
And lastly, I’d like to say that missionaries for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don’t convert people to the Gospel. The Holy Spirit converts people via peace and a still small voice whispering truth within their heart and mind. Missionaries simply present the Bible and the Book of Mormon as the word of God and teach truth. But individual people need to ask God for a testimony of that truth with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ. Then, that truth can then be testified to them by the power of the Holy Ghost. It is an individual and personal thing that no one else can do for you. Seeking a testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ requires that a person search, ponder and pray with a humble heart for that truth to come to them. If it is approached with a hard heart and having already formed an opinion on that truth, then their mind has already been made up and the spirit cannot testify because of that hard-heartedness.
I know these explanations are quite long and I apologize for that. But some questions have been asked that are not simple questions, we don’t know the answers to all things, and God’s will is not always easy for us to understand. That is why we live by faith. I certainly do not know all things. But I do know that God lives and loves His children…ALL of His children. I know that Jesus is the Christ and leads His church even today. He is not a distant, remote Savior but rather loving, kind, generous, and so very willing to forgive. After all, that was the entire purpose of the Atonement. To forgive us. Christ came not into the world to condemn the world, but to bring forgiveness if a man or woman would simply repent and cast aside their sin. That is very personal for each of us and it requires action on our part. It means that each and every one of us is responsible to work hand-in-hand with the Savior as we move forward in our eternal progression. If you have further questions about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I would suggest that, rather than sitting around bashing someone else’s faith, which the Savior would never do, you should ask to visit with a couple of missionaries who can explain more things to you via searching the scriptures, prayer and faith. And I say these things in His name. Amen.
Now explain Plural Marriage
Now explain the Mormon doctrine of Plural Marriage (polygamy) as we taught by your prophet, Joseph Smith, and practised by him as well as most of your prophets and thousands of members.
Will polygamy or plural marriage be practised in Heaven or the fulness of God’s Kingdom?
Hello T. Miller,
Well, let me ask you something; do you believe Abraham will be in heaven? How about Isaac, Jacob & King David? What they all have in common is plural marriages. We believe all these men, except King David, will be in heaven with their families. King David will not have his family because he shed innocent blood.
King David
To explain further, we believe in three degrees of glory or heaven, with the highest glory being where plural marriages are allowed. King David will be in a degree of glory or heaven, just not the highest.
Raymond Weaver's Testimony
Raymond Weaver, the Amish man in this article and video, said he prayed to get back to Heavenly Father with his family, and then he led him to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. What a beautiful, simple, pure, sincere testimony he has.
I’m not doubting his sincerity, but allow me to throw a thought out: I know a young lady in the process of joining an Old Order Amish group who prayed a similar plea and believes she was led to the Amish through her prayers. At the same time, I know of an Amish couple who firmly believes their similar prayer led them to become Jehovah’s Witnesses.
So, and this is not “bashing,” my question is how or why do we (meaning mankind in general) interpret or believe different results from the same prayers?
That might be a rhetorical question. 🙂 Or up to individual interpretation… or ????
That is a good question, Mr. Yoder. I think it is because Brother Weaver prayed specifically how he could have his family in heaven. Different people want different things and God respects that.
Our beliefs regarding family members (like those of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is that only those who qualify for that glory can be with them – those who sought to know and follow the Lord, Jesus Christ, and patiently made the sacrifices He led and helped them make. Greater holiness doesn’t come by asking, but by experience with God’s influence. Every time we choose to repent, we choose to become more like Christ.
My fervent desire and prayer is to be united in Heaven with my loved ones, so that makes perfect sense. It appears to me that the desire is the same, but the LDS & FLDS add the concept of “sealed” to this. I know and trust that being together in Heaven is joy enough without being “separated” (I cannot think of the word I want yet separated doesn’t quite fit — ) into individual family units. Hm. I’m stalled on the word… Okay, seeing us all there as His redeemed doesn’t mean to me that I need to be with all the Yoders or Wilsons or Schmidts or Changs or Garcias. I hope that doesn’t sound mocking, but I don’t really know how to put it otherwise.
I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence! Every time we repent and choose to walk more closely with God, we emulate our Savior! But my feeling about “becoming more like Christ” is we emulate and serve Him, not that I may someday believe I am a god, if that makes sense.
It sounds like your view of heaven is socially different than family life. I think most Christians feel the same. It sounds a bit vague to me.
Who serves more than parents? We believe the greatest work we can do, now and in the next life, is in our families. We believe of all the titles God has, his favorite one is, Father.
“The noblest yearning of the human heart is for a marriage that can endure beyond death.” ~ President Russell M. Nelson
Oh I fully hope to see all my family in Heaven! 🙂
The quote from the president: I thought you believed he was a prophet? Surely the two words don’t have the same meaning? It’s a quote from a man claiming to be something he is not and has no relevance at all except to those who believe in such things, and I do not. I am a Christian. My Saviour is Jesus Christ. My faith is in the One and Only God.
We know him as the president and prophet, and refer to him as such indiscriminately. I am a Christian too. I know there are many influences that we are not, but it is simply not true. I also trust the Lord, Jesus Christ, as my Savior.
We believe that God will not allow the prophet to lead us astray (he would be taken out of his place). The Holy Bible has illustrates this with the prophet Balaam, who was tempted to curse Israel and was about to be slain by an angel of the Lord in Numbers 22:31
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/ot/num/22.27-30?lang=eng&clang=eng#p26
No polygamy in Heaven!
Stephanie has now confirmed her religion believes there will be polygamy in heaven (or part of heaven). Are we in fantasy land or la la land, or what? Such fiction is laughable if it wasn’t so deceptive. No Amish will have anything to do with such ridiculous teachings. You have exposed something that many keep hidden. Thank you for being so honest. Biblical Christians would denounce such ideas as being contrary to the revealed Word of God, no matter what a thousand prophets might say. Indeed, in Heaven there is no marriage or giving in marriage. None, muchless plural marriage. The Scriptures are clear in this regard. It’s good that you exposed this for the readers, so we will know where you really stand. This is very sad. Such doctrines have no place among Bible believing Christians, including Amish and all Anabaptists, evangelicals, and charismatics. Back to the Word of God we must go. We don’t need any other “testaments”. There really is no such thing as “another testament of Jesus Christ”, no matter what you believe. You are free to believe what you want to believe, but that doesn’t mean you are right. The Holy Scriptures, the Word of God, is forever SETTLED. It is the yea and the Amen.
Christian churches who find plural marriage so repugnant still speak much higher of King David than my church does. I wonder what the Amish think of him?
The Book of Mormon is another testament of the divinity of Jesus Christ. It was written by and for a branch of the house of Israel (the Native Americans) who left Israel before Jerusalem was destroyed anciently. I know it is true.
Book of Mormon is Fiction
Millions “know” that the Book of Mormon is pure fiction, and not very well written either. It certainly is NOT “another testimony of Jesus Christ”. There’s nothing there.
I agree 100% on the Holy Scriptures in the Holy Bible as being the final word. Well said!
I am confused about three degrees of Heaven. I don’t recall EVER coming across anything like that in the scriptures!
As for King David, we don’t really put a lot of emphasis on him.
There is a reference to three degrees of glory in 1 Corinthians 15:40 & 41. There is a reference to baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29.
Celestial refers to the heavens, terrestrial to the earth. The three glories referenced in v. 41 are all referring to celestial glories, as the moon, sun, and stars are to be found in the celestial realm. This refers to different glories being “different” yet still a part of one realm.
Yes, there is the reference to the baptizing of the dead in v. 29, but just referencing it does not justify it. It asks “Why are they then baptized for the dead?” The Holy Scriptures reference many things that are to be avoided: it’s all in the context. The scriptures also reference murder and theft.
I wonder why this baptism for the dead doesn’t appear anywhere in scriptures if it was to be practiced? Well, yeah, it was referenced in that one verse, but there are no accounts of Christ’s followers practicing this that I have ever heard of. There are, however, numerous accounts of the baptism of living people.
Are there not different “prophets” for different groups of LDS & FLDS? I have read enough to see that there is not “just one” prophet, like one Catholic Pope. It must be confusing to know which prophet is supposed to be the “one.”
I am grateful our church practices a different way of discipleship without a central leader — this puts the church back in the immediate congregation.
The FLDS are considered apostates, or in other words in open rebellion to God. Often times to circumvent this, they lie and keep their rebellion secret. I do not respect it at all.
The FLDS are considered apostates, or in other words in open rebellion to God. Some circumvent this by keeping their rebellion secret. I do not respect that, at all.
I’m grateful for all the prophets who’ve done and still do the Lord’s will and give us his counsel and leadership. I believe Joseph Smith was a true prophet and Russel M. Nelson is his mouthpiece today.
That’s very interesting how your church governs. That seems the most effective way to govern with civil governments too, keeping it as local as possible.
There is indeed a lot to be said for having church “governing” in the hands of the people one sits side-by-side with, washes feet with, communes with, works with, and prays with as opposed to a far off central “office.” I’m grateful for this Fellowship and accountability!
The interesting thing is, Amish congregations differ all the time in Gospel opinion, which is why they often split up. Each says the other is wrong. How is that reconciled? which congregation do I follow? clearly both cannot be right?
BTW, under the premise that prophets are premise, then Moses, Abraham, etc… were not necessary either, esp. considering there were lots of other prophets to choose from at that time. Even the OT talks about many real and false prophets that existed. E.g. Jeremiah 14: 14-15, Jeremiah 27: 10, Jer 23, Ezekiel 13, Isaiah 9:15, and many more.
Confusing? of course. I mean, even many in Christ’s time called him a false prophet, so who are we to judge?
Another interesting parallel in the OT/NT is how dead prophets were often revered, but rarely the living ones, for it was always easier to believe in dead prophets over living ones.
Finally, anyone that insults or puts down someone elses’s religion is either insecure, misled, or un-Christlike. There seems to be a lot of that here. I may not agree with other people’s religions, but I do not insult them.
We are all different and that’s OK. We have different desires and goals. What seems true for one person often won’t to another, and we are all given different gifts. To some it is given to believe, and to others to believe on their words. God allows us freedom to choose for ourselves what to believe, but died to lead us with truth when we allow Him. We believe one day we will all acknowledge – every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.
But who exactly was and is He? He asked, Whom say ye that I am? How can we know Him? He taught us to do then know (John 7:17) so the more we sincerely follow Him the more we know Him. He taught His sheep know his voice and follow Him. He chooses His prophets and His sheep recognize them by where they are leading and with what spirit. He did warn against judging one another, but encouraged us to learn to judge righteous judgement: “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.” ~ John 7: 24
Circling Back to Baptizing the Dead
“Regarding baptism for the dead, if you read I Corinthians Chapter 15, verse 29, the apostle Paul discusses baptism for the dead. For Him to discuss this practice is an obvious testimony that it was happening in ancient times as well.”
I have read that passage through several times now and still don’t see any suggestion this is approved of or encouraged. Just being mentioned in the scriptures doesn’t automatically make something appropriate — there are many things discussed that Christians today would steer clear of — like adultery, for example.
Baptism for the Dead is not Biblical
Dear Yoder, Baptism for the dead as taught by Mormons (most, but not all) is not based on Holy Scripture, and is a serious error. Yes, adultery is also serious. Polygamy, past, present, or future is adultery. Lusty old men preying on your girls is a nasty thing, and must be rejected as sin.
I agree.
Are you suggesting Abraham and Jacob in the Holy Bible sinned in having more than one wife? It’s good to be careful, but can you conceive of instances where it was a Godly thing?
Baptism of the Dead is not Biblical
Dear Yoder in Ohio, You are right, baptism of the dead is not scriptural, and is based on a man-made twisting of the Scriptures. I understand they have even baptized Hitler. I hope that isn’t true. Nonetheless, it is not Biblical, just like adultery. Polygamy is adultery. Many times it’s lusty old men preying on young innocent girls. Shameful.
Once again, I agree.
Again, so, that sounds like you believe innocent people can end up in hell simply because they didn’t hear the gospel. How is that just or merciful?
Again, I leave this entirely in the Hands of God in His infinite mercy & wisdom. I have faith in His judgment and do not “believe” anything one way or the other. I do not know and I don’t have to! His Will is perfect and that is more than enough for me.
It’s convenient to say God Himself will take care of saving all mankind, but what if He needs our cooperation in order to accomplish it? To lack faith in that is one thing, but fighting against it by believing and affirming misconceptions and lies it is quite another.
Mormons are at liberty to believe whatever they want regarding their version of their god for their religion. But the moment you begin to self identify as Christians to the world, you are now placing yourselves under the ethical and moral obligation to believe in and teach the Christian version of God.
Which is an eternal God without begining nor end.
So long as you maintain that the god of your self identified “Christian faith” had a definitive begining as a mortal man, ie not eternal, you can no long in good faith and with sound moral conscience continue to call yourselves Christians.
To continue calling yourselves and your Mormon religion a “Christian religion” is deceptive, dishonest and despicable. Done no doubt like wolves in sheep’s clothing to deceive gullible and ignorant Christians into thinking that you are a valid Christian faith. Which clearly you are not. Have you no shame in perpetuating this deceit?
I’m going to agree with Adam here. There is no way I could ever think of Mormonism as Christian.
Amen!
Thank you for responding so clearly! Amen!
Mixture of Truth and Error
Unfortunately Mormonism is a mixture of truth and error. The Book of Mormon is not recognized by Christians as another testament of Jesus Christ. The New Testament in itself is sufficient and all we need to know Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Saviour. The Mormon book, which is not well written, and had to be changed/revised/updated many times is fiction. Polygamy as practised by many of their leaders and people for years and years is a disgrace, and many Mormons today seem ashamed of that part of their history. Fundamentalist Mormons still practise it. Thousands are in bondage to this revelation of their “Prophet” Joseph Smith, who had many wives. Ask an LDSer if they will be practising polygamy in Heaven, or if there is polygamy in Heaven? You’ll be shocked. Yes, there are many good moral and decent living Mormons, but that can be said of most religions. What we must focus on is Salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ.
I so agree with this!
Spirits in Prison?
You have misinterpreted that passage entirely. There is NO scriptural basis for this baptism of the dead! None! Whatsoever! You’ve been cruelly and dangerously deceived, Stephanie. Baptizing “for” and “behalf” of the dead is STILL baptizing the dead no matter how you spin semantics. “In case they first believe”? Would you baptize the living on something so vague? There is NOTHING in scripture to suggest the dead are in “spirit prison” and are awaiting baptism on their own behalf.
I beseech you to pray earnestly for the Holy Spirit to guide you towards TRUE faith based on accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and putting your trust in Holy Scripture. Remove the influence of those who are deceiving you. Salvation and eternity are FAR TOO IMPORTANT to take chances, Stephanie! You and yours are in my prayers! Take time to pray over this — ask the Holy Spirit to guide you! If you feel seeds of doubt and experience reservations, open yourself up to His leading.
Well now, I think there is a difference. Do you believe Jesus preached to spirits in prison as it says in 1 Peter 3:18&19? Do we have the same bible? KJV?
“18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit :
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.”
I appreciate your concern and prayers for me. I’m praying for you too.
I notice the complete absence of ANY mention indicating the dead were baptized by the early Christian church or any indication this is suggested or encouraged. I’ll join Will and others in praying that you might be led to renounce the false beliefs you have been deceived by.
That particular verse has challenged Biblical scholars for many years, but the conclusion the Mormons have reached on what it might mean is one of the most blatant perversions I have ever encountered.
Pity you did not include verse 20 which tells you exactly who the spirits in prison were.
Start at the beginning.
Let me get this straight,
Joseph Smith founded Mormonism and LDS movement as well as writing The Book Of Mormon.
Smith said he saw God and an Angel who directed him to “Golden Plates” buried near his home in Manchester New York.
These “Golden Plates” were translated into what is known as The Book Of Mormon.
Smith would not let anyone see these “Plates.” Eventually, 11 people are said to have seen the “Plates” which no longer exist…if they ever did.
Smith, before “finding” the Plates, had a job as a treasure hunter.
Smith had a long criminal history, including fraud. Bank fraund. Faking finding buried treasure. Fornication. Threatening others. Conspiracy to murder.
When learning about his life, Joseph Smith appears to be a very questionable character.
I wonder how people can be so willing to believe in something started by a man who lived such a shady life. Much of which involved fraud.
I’d be interested in reading Stephanie’s thoughts on these facts. I’m afraid they may come as a shock to her because the Mormon church has gone to great lengths to re-write their history and hide the truth from its members. Stephanie, please look into the real history of your organization! You are being misled.
Interesting, but sad. I have read some of that story already in books about the Mormons. I think the one I found the most informative was the “An American Crucifixion.” Also, “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer. Anyone reading those books learns parts of Mormon history that have been denied or white-washed by some Mormons.
Ah, I see… I was confused by calling him a prophet AND a president.
You are right that there are many influences that are NOT Christian. I just can’t quite see how the LDS fit into Christianity when so many of their teaching are based on practices or beliefs that don’t match up with Biblical or accepted Christian teachings. J’s comment above “Start at the Beginning” is a good place to start in understanding where the LDS movement moved away from Christianity.
Father Abraham and Israel
Were Abraham and Jacob in the, Holy Bible, Holy men of God or not? Does anyone still believe that? Did they and their wives sin by practicing plural marriage? What say you?
How does that tie in with how the LDS live and believe today? If that’s relevant now, so is Joseph Smith’s character. Abraham & Jacob also offered up sacrifices — do you? I mean, come on here…
Was it a sin to offer up sacrifices? We have people on here saying there is no way plural marriage could ever be Holy as if it were always a sin.
Of course it wasn’t a sin! My point was that if you are basing your justification for “plural marriage” on examples from the Old Testament there are a lot of OTHER things that were expected or practiced by Christians during those times yet I am not aware of Mormons copying those examples. It looks like Mormons are VERY selective in what Old Testament practices they pick out to justify their practices today.
Influences
Should I allow influence that include accusations against the greatest prophets that ever lived to influence me regarding the true nature and will of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ?
Revelations 12:10 “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.”
“Influences
Should I allow influence that include accusations against the greatest prophets that ever lived to influence me regarding the true nature and will of God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ?”
YES! You should! They have influenced you, these ” Mormon prophets,” but not towards the Will of God! Read up on the real history of Mormonism. If your faith is unshakable, it can stand strong in the face of “accusations.”
I was referring to Abraham and Israel as the greatest prophets that ever lived. The anti-Mormon books you espouse are full of influences that lead to accusations such as have been made here regarding any plural marriage being sinful.
Possible Confusion?
“I was referring to Abraham and Israel as the greatest prophets that ever lived. The anti-Mormon books you espouse are full of influences that lead to accusations such as have been made here regarding any plural marriage being sinful.”
Okay! I see where some confusion is coming from miscommunication! Do you mean “inferences” instead of “influences”??? That totally changes the statements. Sorry for the confusion.
Influences from bashing books like anti-Mormon literature lead to a spirit of accusing directly, or through inferring, the Lord’s representatives, not just modern but ancient, including Abraham and Jacob and their wives, and even the Lord Himself.
They bear a false witness. They are full lies, distortions, exaggerations, misconceptions, misrepresentations, and misunderstandings (as with those who didn’t understand the Saviors teachings regarding the sacrament in John 6:67).
It’s called a smear campaign and is of the devil. Have you ever been lied about? I have. Our Christian ancestors were lied about. Jesus was tried in a court of law and convicted to death because of lies.
Stephanie, Are you saying Jesus practised polygamy? What about Heavenly Father?
Stephanie, Are you suggesting “the Lord himself” practised POLYGAMY???? Who were his wives? Hope you can answer directly, or is that a secret teaching you keep from the public? Just asking. No harm intended. Only interested in the Truth. You are usually quite honest, and that is appreciated.
I do not believe Jesus practiced plural marriage. I believe he taught against it, through holy prophets in the America’s as found in Jacob 2:23-35, Book of Mormon.
Stephanie, does your husband have more than one wife? Would you allow your precious daughters to be forced into “plural marriage”? To a much older man? Wouldn’t you as a mother want better for them? Could you really stand by and watch them given into marriage with a man old enough to be their father?!
Any parent who would allow this to happen (more than one wife, marrying off young girls to older men) is despicable and has no right to try & cover up their dreadful sins and failures by calling it “christian.” That’s a slap in the face of Christ’s followers everywhere! Please study the Holy scriptures prayerfully! It is going to be hard to keep all that Joseph Smith teaching out of your mind but you owe it to yourself and your children.
Hello KTF,
My family and I have never participated in plural marriages, so no, I would not. I would not ever force my children to do anything. Believe me, they wouldn’t let me either :D. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints stopped practicing it long ago. I believe it has only been God’s will in rare instances. Thank your for your concern. God bless you and yours.
I am very relieved to read that you don’t have “sister” wives or would force your daughters in marriage with older men with multiple wives. (And I hear you on “forcing children, ha ha! I know what you mean!) But my question now is what if President Russell decided to bring back plural marriage? What then?
The only way I would possibly attempt to participate in plural marriage is if Jesus convinced me to. If He asked you to do it, would you?
to Stephanie. After reading through all of this it is plain to see there is nothing Amish in your way of faith and though you can’t see to see it that way only enough truth mixed in with the Mormon teaching to pull you into believing it is Christian. The best way to “honor” your Amish ancestors would be to return to the Christian faith. It doesn’t have to be Amish — Amish is just one part of Christianity, but don’t just do it for your ancestors do it for yourself and your children and grandchildren! It would be the best gift you could give your family!
“The only way I would possibly attempt to participate in plural marriage is if Jesus convinced me to. If He asked you to do it, would you?”
I would hardly expect Jesus to go against His own teachings, but a more important question for me would be was this coming directly and personally from Jesus Christ Himself or someone claiming to speak FOR Him.
Did Jesus teach against plural marriage?
Plural marriages
Do the Mormons teach, or have ever taught that Jesus had plural wives?
Listen to what Orson Hyde (Mormon Apostle) had to say …
“…I said, in my lecture on Marriage, at our last Conference, that Jesus Christ was married at Cana of Galilee, that Mary, Martha, and others were his wives, and that he begat children.”
(Journal of Discourses 2:210).
RANK HERSEY!
I agree. That is very disturbing!
Orson Hyde was not a prophet.
Was old Orson excommunicated for telling lies?
Stephanie, Was Orson excommunicated for telling lies that Jesus was married, and in a polygamy relationship? If not, why not? OR was he simply stating Mormon belief??? Either way, this whole polygamy nonsense is a disaster, and thank God Amish are being awakened to the truth. To state that Jesus was married and living in polygamy is a devilish concoction from the underworld.
He was an "Apostle"
My dear friend, Orson Pratt was NOT a “prophet”, BUT he was an “Apostle” of the Mormon Church, and he taught very clearly that Jesus was married and even named his wives. He also taught the same concerning Heavenly Father. This is all well-documented and may well be the current belief of many Mormon-ists.
To me it would be like having one of our ministers preaching something heretical and misleading but saying, “Oh, but he wasn’t the BISHOP.” If false teaching is coming from any of the men in leadership, it needs to be dealt with prayerfully, swiftly, and thoroughly. If his words were not in agreement with the church he was representing, what happened to him?
Orson Hyde was excommunicated.
Well, THAT is good to know! Thank you. It’s sad he got to that point, though.
I believe Jesus taught against plural marriage, through holy prophets in the America’s (Jacob 2:23-35, Book of Mormon). But why do you believe he taught against it?
Polygamy was/is "sin".
The reason Book of Mormon taught against polygamy is because it was “sin”. Read it for yourself.
Question
In 2015, the Mormon church admitted that Joseph Smith was a polygamist.
The Mormon church admitted that he married at least 33 women, including some as young as 14.
The Mormon church believes that Smith was marrying some of the women to be his wives in the afterlife.
The Mormon church admits some of these women were already married to other men.
The Mormon church only forbade polygamy in 1890 because of pressure from the U.S. Government.
Mormons still believe that a man can be sealed to multiple wives in the afterlife. However the same does not apply to women.
The Mormon church admitted that one of the reasons they supported polygamy was to increase the LDS population. To get women pregnant and raise children in a LDS home.
The Mormon church does not support polygamy at the moment. But has said they will if God wants it to happen again. In fact, on their own website they speak positively about it. Including how good it was financially and helped bring different groups of people together.
One of the biggest concerns I have is how many Mormons can not or will not answer certain questions directly!
One question is this: Knowing Joseph Smith had a history of fraud and looking into stones to find buried treasures, do you believe Joseph Smith and his story about how he dug up those golden plates? Yes? Or No? Do not type anything else.
Just yes or no.
I do not know Joseph Smith to commit fraud. I know him as the kind of man who would not do that. He endured terrible persecution all his life for telling the truth and was killed to restore the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. Prophets have always been slandered and persecuted by those of questionable character their selves. .
Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. Joseph’s fruits are restoring the gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness upon the earth, translating The Book of Mormon, restoring proper priesthood authority, helping God extend salvation and exaltation to the dead and the living. I and millions like me all over the world have been greatly blessed by his sacrifices. Joseph Smith was a good person and true prophet of God.
If I were in your position, Stephanie, I’d want to read up on him. If you are putting your faith and salvation on him, you really do need to know what his life was like, right? I am sure the LDS church has tons of writing about him — I found plenty — but there is a HUGE difference between what is history and what is LDS-promoting material.
I have no interest in digging up and gawking at the purported and usually exaggerated mistakes of his or anyone else’s for that matter. We all have weaknesses, especially with pride. We all say things we’d like to take back. Like I said before, His grace is sufficient, that we may become perfected in Christ. It’s our overall fruits and intent that count the most, and only Jesus Christ can judge.
Let me ask you something, do you believe Moses was a holy prophet of God? Do you believe he was perfect?
“I have no interest in digging up and gawking at the purported and usually exaggerated mistakes of his or anyone else’s for that matter.”
I was looking at direct quotes, but whatever.
I understand, but I was addressing more than that quote. Moses also had a problem with pride at least once. Most would not think him qualified to be a holy prophet of God, wouldn’t you say?
Ah, I see…. Well, Moses certainly didn’t put himself ABOVE God, but I see what you are saying.
So is that a “yes” or a “no”? It’s hard to tell.
Mormons
The bible views polygamy in a negative light.
For example, the first polygamist in the bible is a murderer named Lamech.
Those who were polygamist in the bible often caused trouble for themselves and others.
There is the commandment that one shall not covet another man’s wife.
Adultery is a sin.
Man should love his wife as Christ loves the church. Man and woman become one flesh. Not multiple flesh.
Christ did not love multiple churches. Just one.
“Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.”
Man should love his wife as he loves Christ. You can’t love multiple churches nor can you love multiple wives. Lust and love are different.
Now I am REALLY confused!
If Jesus taught against plural marriage in the Book of Mormon, why all the wives for even Joseph Smith himself??? Reading up on the early Mormon church and multiple accounts from various sources about large numbers of wives, I am confused by the conflicting information here.
We believe in continued revelation, which is found in our Holy Scriptures, which is not just every or any teaching by any or every leader. If you want to understand, please don’t let someone else try to translate it for you because they probably don’t understand either and may have ulterior motives like a smear campaign.
Marriage is the highest law and is complicated and difficult , requiring the greatest sacrifice of any relationship but has the greatest potential to refine us. Plural marriage is much more so. It is not a sin when done properly, as with Abraham and Jacob. I don’t believe that means they did it perfectly however.
The early church was called by God to participate in plural marriage, probably for reasons given by the Lord in Jacob 2:23-35. Further understanding may be found in The Doctrine and Covenants 132, when studied prayerfully and balanced with other scriptures, including the Holy Bible.
Believe me, I do not blindly follow anyone, except Jesus. I have a mind of my own and a strong will. Every teaching I hear from every prophet, dead or living, I prayerfully consider and compare to all the Holy Scriptures. The Lord has confirmed to me every doctrine pertinent to my salvation and exaltation taught by every prophet, including those in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Mormon
In 2015 the Mormon Church admitted that one reason polygamy was practiced was to increase their numbers. To get women pregnant and raise children in a LDS home. The Mormons literally admitted this and was put on their official website.
They took the line from Jacob 2:30 “raise up seed unto Me(Lord)” to justify polygamy.
They also said it was good financially and for ethnic intermarriages.
All LDS were to accept it as a revelation from God.
In 1890, Mormons “paused’ polygamy due to pressure from the US Government.
For example, the US Supreme Court ruled in 1878 that polygamy was illegal and religion,1st Amendment, could NOT be used to justify polygamy. Of course, the Mormon President at that time said that it was the Lord who told him to stop.
The court case was Reynolds(who was a member of the LDS and was testing the Governments power) vs The United States.
So no, God did not say to stop polygamy. It was literally the US Government. Even though President of the Mormon Church Woodruff said it was the Lord who told him to stop.
The timing of the Lord speaking with the President of the Mormon Church sure is interesting. Proof that Mormons sometimes make things up as they go along.
Then move on. If others wish to comment, they can. If you don’t, then move on. There are lots of other topics on this site they may interest you.
You’re welcome. Glad I could help you understand that others are allowed to comment whether you like it or not. Freedom is a beautiful thing.
You shared some important points, J. Thanks!
Anti-Mormons like “J” are not telling the truth as I’ve explained before. They site leaders who were not prophets who said outrageous things that were not considered scriptures, as if we believe they are. They bear a false witness, like saying it was not a revelation to stop, when it was. They try to make it seem like we should be ashamed, when it is they who should be ashamed for misrepresenting a religion.
The scriptures I sited regarding plural marriage on lds.org are freely available, and so is the one regarding the revelation to stop, in the Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declaration 1. It sites the scripture in Jacob 2 as our belief that monogamy is God’s standard for marriage unless He declares otherwise.
I am not ashamed of our history or our leaders because they were called to do and did very difficult things and no one is perfect, except Jesus Christ. His grace is sufficient that we may become perfect in Christ.
It is literally American history that the Mormon church changed their stance on polygamy due to the U.S. GOvernment.
Remember, Utah tried to join the United States but was turned down many times mainly due to its polygamous ways. Mormon leader Woodruff had to put a pause on polygamy in 1890 and Utah had to put in writing that marriage is one man, one woman, so Utah could join the union. Which it did 6 years later in 1896.
If God was ok was polygamy, then he must have been disappointed when Brigham Young had 10 wives divorce him. One wife, Ann Eliza wrote a book detailing the horrors of the Mormon church and Young’s treatment of her. The book is called “Wife No. 19.
And Joseph smith?
The same Joseph Smith who lied to his wife about taking another wife?
Think about that. Smith. The man who started mormonism/LDS is the same man who lied about being a polygamist. Including lying to his wife about it. The same Smith who said he dug up golden plates and was visited by God and an angel.
If it is not in the Holy Bible, it’s NOT scripture.
As for the LDS prophets?
Read 1 Timothy 2:5 — “For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.”
If there is only One God — and there is as the Holy Scriptures teach us and Christians believe — then you cannot become gods of your own planets as the Mormon church teaches.
Think about it Stephanie, if you’ve been deceived, what dangerous position are you and your family in?!
Your church teaches there are more than one God!! Read also Deut. 4:35; Isaiah 44: 6-8; 1 John 5:7; John 10:30. Read the whole chapters….
Of course, Joseph Smith said, “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct book on earth.” How alarming!
On May 26, 1844, Joseph Smith claimed he was greater than Jesus!
(I have more to boat of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him: but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
That direct quote alarms me and it should alarm anyone following in his footsteps!
Oops!
“more to boat of” should have been more to BOAST of. My mistake!
J – That is a secular view of why they stopped.
AJ – I’m saying he is bearing a false witness. I’m not judging him as a person.
Yoder – Most correct book doesn’t mean most important book. And I’m not following Joseph, but Jesus.
I’m re-posting this answer to your concerns because I think I put it in the wrong place previously:
I have no interest in digging up and gawking at the purported and usually exaggerated mistakes of his or anyone else’s for that matter. We all have weaknesses, especially with pride. We all say things we’d like to take back. Like I said before, His grace is sufficient, that we may become perfected in Christ. It’s our overall fruits and intent that count the most, and only Jesus Christ can judge.
Let me ask you something, do you believe Moses was a holy prophet of God? Most would not think him qualified to be a holy prophet of God.
Wait...
You are calling “J” a liar?
Moving On
Hi Erik: Are you able to delete my comments? Thanks.
Keith – yes would you mind just shooting me an email? ewesner(at)gmail(dot)com. Thanks
Godhood
Regarding the doctrine of Godhood, as I stated before there are many unknowns. We don’t dwell on it much, but believe as Christ taught to strive to be perfect like Heavenly Father, and in the eternities it is possible somehow. It is not to replace nor displace Him!
Children grown up to be like their fathers and work with them and beside them. Father’s usually want this, that is the purpose of having children, isn’t it? So why would that be different for our Heavenly Father?
Striving to be perfect and “becoming a god” would seem to me to be two different things. Christians should try to live a Christ-like life, but Christians don’t do so expecting to be a god on their own planet someday. I do understand (I think) what you are saying about not replacing Him or replacing Him, but it would seem to me to be very presumptuous to believe you could “become Him.” As I was typing this, the Tower of Babel came to mind.
Children grow up to be “like their fathers and work with them and beside them.” Maybe in some ways. Though they may be looking to become parents someday, they hopefully aren’t trying to copy me because unlike God, I’ve made loads of mistakes. Because they are human, they will perhaps also make mistakes in their parenting. They certainly don’t have my personality or my job. They are individuals. The purpose for having children wasn’t to create carbon-copies of me or try to raise them to follow all my footsteps. The purpose was to raise them in the Lord with the sincere desire to see them accept Christ, live Godly lives, and follow their own paths. I’d never dream of pushing or forcing them into becoming members of a certain church or expecting them to do just as I did.
I didn’t write “become Him”. I wrote “become like Him”. I don’t mean as carbon copies. I agree that we should all be who we choose to be with their own personalities. We don’t think of it as striving to be a god, but like Him by following Jesus Christ.
Correction, I meant to write with our own personalities.
🙂 I assumed that was what you meant.
But your church does teach and believe mortal men can become gods, right?
Not as you are thinking of it.
If anything that seems strange is taught, like the sacrament as Jesus taught in John 6, then it is misunderstood and can be understood in time with faith as we look to Christ.
We all say and do things that are out of character overall. For them to be portrayed as the norm is inaccurate.
If a person painted your portrait, but added and accentuated faults to where you were un-recognizablable, that would not be a true picture of you. That’s what people do with Joseph Smith, some out of fear, some by hearing and believing it, and some out of maliciousness. Whatever the reason, it is still inaccurate.
Whatever prideful or strange quotes or deeds that were truly said and done were not the norm. They are not held up as inspired of God or examples for church members to emulate, quite the opposite.
If anything that seems strange is scripture, like the sacrament as Jesus taught in John 6:66 , then it is misunderstood and can be understood in time with faith as we look to Christ.
To be honest, much of what I have read — including direct quotes from Joseph Smith himself — paints a very unflattering view. I actually felt more concern about his character after reading his own words as he had written them.
We all have faults — absolutely — but we are taught and I believe this is where the accountability of a Brotherhood of Believers comes in. If I made troubling statements and did so often, I would want to be lovingly admonished and have my faults and errors brought to my attention.
Hasn’t much of what you’ve read been from anti-Mormon literature? How much have you read about him from positive side, from church history that is held up and still taught? Have you read his own account? It is found on lds.org under Scriptures and Study tab, Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith – History. Have you prayerfully read the Book of Mormon?
I’m very glad you have such good Brotherhood.
Anti-Mormon literature? Not all of it! When I am looking at anything, I like to approach it from several different angles. I have read the Book of Mormon (though not cover to cover) and found it troubling on many different levels. My main prayer during that reading and parts of Pearl of Great Price was of gratitude for the Holy Scriptures and the teachings of Christianity as opposed to Mormonism.
Have you read any of the anti-Mormon or historical accounts of Mormonism? I’ve read plenty of books slamming the Amish. 😉
I’m very grateful for the Brotherhood I am privileged to be a part of.
Yes, I’ve read both sides. I enjoy studying religions.
Was Jesus married or not?
According to LDS/Mormon teaching was Jesus married or not? Did he personally practise polygamy? Does the organization also teach that the Heavenly Father is married and is married in polygamy, fathering “spirit children”? Who is “Heavenly Mother”?
We are not taught that Jesus was married. It is inferred that we have a Heavenly Mother, but we are not taught about her. I believe in a Heavenly Mother, but these things are among the unknown, and we are taught to not dwell on them but focus on Christ.
A Heavenly Mother?
You are, I assume, not referring to the Virgin Mary? Is there ANY place in the Holy Bible that suggests anything like a heavenly mother? Hm. If so, I can’t think of it right now…
No, I’m not. Again, we are not taught anything about her. That we call God Heavenly Father suggests to me there is a Heavenly Mother. Can there be a father without a mother?
“Can there be a father without a mother?”
Our Heavenly Father.
😀 I can appreciate that. We believe one reason we are not to focus on her is that Heavenly Father does not want her discussed unkindly.
Fitting "Heavenly Mother" and Mary, mother of Jesus, into the same puzzle
Maybe Jesus is the product of divine polygamy ? Worth a ponder.
We need the little faces pictures on here...
I can do a smiling face, but we need those little faces to choose from so I can put the horrified looking little face on here.
:-O
That’s the best I can do.
Mr. Knisely, to even suggest such an idea is very irreverent and disrespectfull to Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and all of us.
Well, Ms Berkey -- Mrs Berkey -- Miss Berkey -- really, whatever you prefer...
…YOU sort out how to slot Heavenly Mother and Mary, mother of Jesus, into Heavenly Father’s schedule. Maybe He visits Mary on alternate Wednesday afternoons and spends the rest of His time with Heavenly Mother. I’m not an expert. But from what I’ve been reading here, YOU’VE got it figured out. Let us all know, please.
Or maybe it’s just one of those classic questions that get you hushed and frowned at in Bible school.
After you’re done explaining the Point That Must Not Be Discussed… where DID Cain get his wife?
Once you figured out where Cain got his wife — please let me know. 🙂
Alex Knisely,
It happens to be The Holy Bible your slamming in regards to Mary, the Mother of Jesus Christ. We believe the Holy Ghost put Jesus in her womb and it was all very Holy. Why so snide? Do you even believe in God?
As far as Cain, that would be a sister or a niece… they lived a hundreds of years back then.
We believe there are more Gods in the heavens. We worship only our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, but we believe in an eternal heavenly family before the earth was formed.
We believe that God the Father has a Father and family, and so does He, and on and on back through eternity. So, we believe Heavenly Father had a Goddess for a wife before the earth was formed, who is our Heavenly Mother.
Many things were very different in the days of Cain. Some things were acceptable then that aren’t now. We believe in continual revelation because different things are acceptable before God at different times.
Revelations
We believe in continual revelation through prophets of God to know what is acceptable before God at different times. We also are taught the importance of personal revelation through the Holy Ghost to confirm revelations from the prophet and for guidance in our every day personal lives.
And with this comment, you’ve lost any and all claims to Christianity. This is one of the saddest comments yet.
I’m praying for you and yours!
This was the sad comment I meant
“We believe there are more Gods in the heavens. We worship only our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, but we believe in an eternal heavenly family before the earth was formed.
We believe that God the Father has a Father and family, and so does He, and on and on back through eternity. So, we believe Heavenly Father had a Goddess for a wife before the earth was formed, who is our Heavenly Mother.”
I read my comment and realized it was unclear exactly which comment I was talking about.
I meant to say what was Jesus or what grew to become Him. Either way it doesn’t make a difference. I’m not that interested in the particulars. If you are, why don’t you ask Him yourself? The point is Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. That’s what the Holy Bible says, and that is what we believe.
God would not do anything like what your suggesting to any of His daughters, ever. If you knew Him at all, you’d know that much.
This Mormon/Amish Dialogue Will Save Many From Being Deceived
This Mormon/Amish dialogue will save many Anabaptists from being led away into deception. Yes, many Mormons are good, clean living folk, just like most Amish. The deception is all of this man made and face doctrine designed to mislead sincere people into false doctrine, and to pull them away from their faith. Polygamy and Heavenly “Mother”, and baptising dead people is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully this dialogue will open the eyes of all Amish and Mennonites who are open to being misled into what Christians call a “cult”. Hopefully those Amish who already converted will read these comments and be snatched from deception. May they study carefully what they have gotten themselves into. Mormonism is another religion and a different belief. Only the Truth can set us free, and HE is the Truth, and His Word is “forever settled”. They call their book “another testimony of Jesus Christ”, but that’s not so. There is no such thing.
Miller, I couldn’t agree with you more! Christ IS the answer! There is but ONE true & living God and His Word IS forever settled!
One of the reasons I’ve willingly spent so much time on this discussion is the hope that the true nature of Mormonism might be revealed. That is what has happened.
My prayer now is that this whole thread might open eyes and hearts and that faith in Christ may be renewed.
To Yoder in Ohio
I’m so glad you were willing to spend so much time on this with the hope that the true nature of Mormonism might be revealed. That is exactly what has happened. I join with you in the prayer that the entire threat might have their eyes opened wide. This deception is slowly starting to take root among a small minority. We must be much in prayer. He is able. The Truth will always set the people free, and the truth is not some mystical “burning in the heart” as the Mormons testify. Through the Truth (Jesus) all who are hungry, and they shall be born again, born from above to a life of faithfulness, purity and obedience to His wonderful Word, which brings true joy unspeakable and so full of Glory. I pray for those xAmish who have fallen into the hands of this cult, and they might experience true salvation through the cleansing power in the blood of the Lamb. I pray for those Mormons on this thread that they, too, might be set free from the bondage of corrupted religion, and come to know Him in a personal way, for He is their Saviour, too. Thank you Yoder in Ohio from Miller in Canada
The Holy Ghost
Miller from Canada said, “the truth is not some mystical “burning in the heart” as the Mormons testify”.
The burning in the heart is a witness from the Holy Spirit. Do you believe in Him? Do you believe he bears witness to us of the truth and love of God? If so, how does he do it?
“13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teachers, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receivers not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” ~ 1 Corinthians 2:13-14
The Holy Ghost
Jesus taught, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeded from the Father, he shall testify of me” John 15:26
“And the remission of sins bringeth meekness and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter fillet with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God. ~ Moroni 8:26, The Book of Mormon
Quoting from the book of Mormon does not change anything. The Holy Bible is the ONE and ONLY scripture Christians recognize.
There is no point to turn this around with questions & challenges such as you’ve given to Miller or Alex. It’s like comparing oranges & apples! Trying to reconcile Mormonism and Christianity is impossible.
2nd Witness of the Holy Ghost
I quoted the Book of Mormon as a second witness to the Holy Ghost.
Yoder, are you trying to shut down the conversation just when its starting to get good?
Most of the Christian world believes in the Holy Ghost! And that He comforts, strengthens, and bears witness to us of the truth through our heart and mind. My Heavens! Don’t the Amish believe this too?
A Challenge
Also, I haven’t made any challenges yet, but now that you mention it I will.
Prayerfully read the Book of Mormon in its entirety with an open mind, and ask God if it is true. If you do, the Holy Ghost will reveal to you the truth, and by the power of the Holy Spirit we can know the truth of all things.
“And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere hear, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye man know the truth of all things. ~ Moroni 10:4-5, The Book of Mormon
No thank you. I read much of it once already and have no desire to repeat the experience. It was a disturbing read then and now with all you have taught me about your beliefs, I’m even less inclined to dabble in such material. I have The Word of God in the form of The Holy Bible and that is ALL that a Christian needs when it comes to scripture. Well, I guess as far as THAT goes, it IS the only Scripture, but it is more than sufficient.
Weill, it’s probably better you don’t if you can’t give it an honest try.
The fact it is false teaching and dangerously misleading to so many people makes me very sad. I prefer to stick with the Christians’ scriptures: The Holy Bible.