81 responses to 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service
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    Al in Ky
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 07:55)

    I have never been to an Amish church service, but have been at various Amish homes on Saturdays when they are preparing for church and it’s always a busy time! I have also had the experience three times with three different Amish ministers, being around when they are preparing their sermons. All three were using their Bibles, concordances and a couple of other books in doing their preparation. This surprised me because I thought Amish sermons were entirely extemporaneous. Most recently I stopped by for a short visit with an Amish minister and his family on a Saturday. I could see he had his Bibles and other books and a notebook to write in. I mentioned it looked like he was preparing his sermon and asked if he was the minister who would preach the next day at his church’s service. He said, “Yes, unless
    some guest minister shows up and then he will likely preach.” I thought, “How disappointing, if you’ve worked several hours on a sermon and then wouldn’t even get to preach it.”

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      Trish in Indiana
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 08:44)

      Al, as someone who has preached (generally not in Mass, because the Catholic Church does not ordain women, but in other settings such as retreats), I imagine that an Amish preachers might be somewhat disappointed not to be called upon to preach after putting in a lot of prep, but would also know that the study time was not wasted, as it would make the sermon actually preached at the service more meaningful to him.

      And Amish preachers may well experience the same phenomenon that I have: If I know in advance that a preaching occasion is on my schedule but something beyond my control has prevented me from taking the time to prepare thoroughly, the Holy Spirit always helps me to find the words to say. If, on the other hand, I am unprepared because I was being lazy and just didn’t get around to it, the Holy Spirit is perfectly happy to watch me founder in front of all those people! It’s a lesson that doesn’t have to be taught many times to be well-learned!

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        Comment on just like to know if there is amish churches in maine (January 3rd, 2017 at 16:52)

        just like to know if there is amish churches in maine

        hello I was wondering if there may be any amish churches in maine I’m from bangor maine I’m so big in amish and the way of living

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    Mark – Holmes Co.
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 08:26)

    I have two brothers in the ministry. As far as I know, all ministers study for Sunday even if they know there is a chance they will not be the one to preach. A minister planning to attend in another district can look in the register to see what scriptures will be read and can read and study those in advance. A minister does not use notes in his preaching. I have often heard of ministers who had an idea of what they might talk about but when the time came, something completely different came to mind or what was preached in the opening sermon might send their thoughts in a new direction.
    As for getting ready for church, it is a busy time. It’s a good way to get all the corners of the house & other buildings cleaned up. :) It is also a good feeling once church is over and normal routine can be taken up again. Or as our 17 year old son put it last time, “Now we can make a mess again!”

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    Julie
    Comment on About Amish church service (January 28th, 2015 at 08:44)

    About Amish church service

    It’s interesting about the length of the service- I can relate to this. I am Jewish, and growing up, our family attended Orthodox and/or Conservative services, that were typically 2 to 3 hours in length. As an adult, my husband and our children and I attend a reform Jewish congregation, where normal weekly services are an hour, but for the High Holidays are 3 1/2 hours.

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    Trish in Indiana
    Comment on Women and the kiss of peace? (January 28th, 2015 at 08:55)

    Women and the kiss of peace?

    Erik, do you know if women in the Amish community exchange the Kiss among themselves? I would think that “all Christians” would include both halves of the community, but sometimes such things fall between the cracks of history, if it became identified with “the ministers” and that was defined as “the men.”

    I can also imagine, however, the women exchanging the kiss when they gather in the house, as the men do when they gather outside, so a male visitor (or male ministers, for that matter) might not normally see it.

    In Catholic churches, the Kiss is exchanged at a specific point during the Mass (service) shortly before communion, and after the Second Vatican Council was turned from a literal “kiss” into whatever gesture of fellowship is acceptable and understood within each culture. In the United States, the accepted gesture at this time is a handshake. I’m told in some Asian countries it is a bow. The US Bishops are thinking about making a change to the gesture here, but I have not heard what they are thinking of changing it to.

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      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 09:42)

      Good question. Actually I believe women do give the kiss to women in some churches. The bishop’s wife also gives the kiss to newly-baptized female members.

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      Comment on Holy Kiss (January 28th, 2015 at 12:47)

      Holy Kiss

      Since there’ve been references to the Holy Kiss (and because Erik said I could refer to my related blog post), I’ll share a post on the Holy Kiss “Amish Pucker-Up” http://brendanixononamish.blogspot.com/2013/05/amish-pucker-up.html

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    Jim
    Comment on I find it surprising..... (January 28th, 2015 at 09:11)

    I find it surprising.....

    …..that there are so many rcc comments in this thread…..mainly because it was the rcc that persecuted all the Anabaptist faiths.

    How can they be compared, at all? Does anyone really care what the rcc does or plans to do in a Amish blog?

    Just wondering….

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      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 09:19)

      Jim, anyone can comment as long as they’re respectful.

      Don’t try to “shut down” other commenters because you disagree with or dislike another church. We talk about different faith experiences here and threads go in different directions. Are you a new commenter here?

      Trish, comment away.

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        Bill Rushby
        Comment on Catholic Influence on Early Anabaptiusm (January 28th, 2015 at 10:01)

        Catholic Influence on Early Anabaptiusm

        Charles Loomis was one of my professors in graduate school at Michigan State. He argued that there was a significant Catholic influence on early Anabaptism.

        For example, he attributed the early Anabaptists’ proficiency in agriculture to the transfer of skills from the monasteries through monastic converts to the Anabaptist movement. Remember, in medieval times the monasteries were the centers of learning and of technological innovation (think Mendel and his peas, as a case in point!). And the monastics were often practitioners of a rigorous Christianity (take a bow, Francis of Assisi!)

        So, Catholicism is not irrelevant to the development of the Anabaptist movement.

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          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 19:27)

          Bill, you are absolutely correct. Michael Sattler, who was very influential in the early Anabaptist movement was a former Benedictine monk. He was one of the authors of the Schleitheim Confession, and he basically lifted seven of the articles of faith from the Benedictine rule. The Amish today still adhere to the Schleitheim Confession. The one Sattler didn’t bring into the SC was the vow of chastity. My husband, David, who has done extensive reading on this subject, claims the Amish lifestyle is like monastic life, except with families.

          I think your idea of monastic farm life being influential is also right on. In fact, some of the early Anabaptist leaders could have been working at the monasteries as lay members (besides those who were actually monks or priests). They would definitely pick up the farming techniques that way.

          It is hard for me to comprehend how much blood was shed over the idea of people choosing to be baptized as adults. I scratch my head over why this idea would have been such a threat. There must by something I’m missing about the culture at the time. I know it is tied in to self-empowerment versus taking your orders from those in authority. But good grief. The authorities didn’t know human nature very well… if the human spirit is oppressed, then people will react. Simple as that.

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        Trish in Indiana
        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 15:36)

        That is much appreciated, Erik!

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          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 12:54)

          5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service

          Erik, I share Trish’s appreciation! Many evangelical Christian demonstrations (not all!) have an impulse to dismiss the Roman Catholic Tradition and it seemed that was Jim’s first impulse in his comments.

          By discussing the Amish tradition here, the Kiss of Peace, the modern Catholic tradition of the handshake for the Sign of Peace, we have the chance to look at both and think of both critically. This is good! The discussion of an Amish tradition, in this case, brought an exam of Catholic one — how we are similar, how we differ and where both/either may go in the future. In this sense, we help each other along our differing paths of religious traditions and continue to walk a path of Christian faith together.

          And I really like Amish peanut butter!

          Thanks,
          Karen

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        Elva Bontrager
        Comment on The Amish have a lot in common with the Catholics (January 28th, 2015 at 16:45)

        The Amish have a lot in common with the Catholics

        I have often thought that, even though the Plain People rebelled against the Roman Catholic faith and often paid a heavy price for it, the Amish retained a good deal of their heritage. (Although, strictly speaking, the Amish didn’t have the Catholic heritage; they rebelled against the Mennonites who were the ones who had been Catholic). But the Amish women, in particular, retained a good many features: i.e. their clothing. Think of the traditional dress of Catholic nuns- doesn’t an Amish woman look a great deal like that? Think of the long, solid-colored gown. Even the white covering could be a stand in for the wimple, while the black bonnet resembles the black head coverings that traditional ‘sisters’ wore. Incidentally, Amish songs resemble the Gregorian Chants of Catholic monks.

        The Amish, at least in the time that I was Amish, feared and despised the Catholics; their memories are long and bitter. The “Martyrs’ Mirror’ is practically a sacred book to the traditional Amish. And the Amish often thought/think of Revelations’ depiction of the end times as referring directly and distinctly to the Catholic Church and the Pope.

        I’m proud of my Amish heritage – after all, not too many Americans can boast of that- but let’s not forget their peculiarities.

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          Mark – Holmes Co.
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 09:52)

          A lot of the persecution of the early Anabaptists was also coming from the Protestant authorities. I guess I always saw it as coming from the State Churches, not just one or the other.

          I have heard people mention the dress of Amish women looking like nuns before. Don’t remember where I heard it, but there was a taxi driver who picked up some Amish girls in a big city train station and asked if they were “sisters.” One answered, “No, but some of us are cousins.”

          The bonnet came along later and was really an issue at one time. I guess the bonnet became popular in a lot of areas in the time of Queen Victoria and slowly made it’s way into the Amish churches. (And others.) There are still Amish churches in PA that do not allow the bonnet to be worn.

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            Trish in Indiana
            Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 12:53)

            Mark, your story about the taxi driver mistaking the Amish girls for Religious “sisters” (nuns) reminded me of a time when I was in Divinity school, and some of us went to a conference in Springfield, Missouri. I was eating at McDonalds with a friend of mine who, like me, was from Indiana (so we both knew Plain folk when we saw them without really even thinking about it), and with us was a Religious sister from Ireland, who of course had never seen any. A couple of Plain women came in and the Irish sister said, “Oh, I wonder what community they’re from? I haven’t seen a habit like that before.” It was all my Indiana friend and I could do not to laugh at the dear sister. We explained to her. She had heard of Amish, but it had never crossed her mind (even when she came to study in the United States) that she might actually see some, especially at a fast food restaurant!

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            Trish in Indiana
            Comment on about State churches (January 29th, 2015 at 13:03)

            about State churches

            Also Mark, you are right that persecution has tended to come from “civil” authorities, who in the early years of Anabaptist history were tied to “church” authorities, whether Protestant or Catholic. There was a tendency to see religion as a source of cohesiveness within all of society, and civil authorities saw nonconformity as undermining that social cohesion. The problem that leads to persecution is not necessarily believing one’s own religion to be right (as nearly all religions do), but in the idea of Establishment of one religious view as part of the foundation of State authority.

            In fact, now that I think of it, it seems that much of what we think of as “sectarian” violence has more to do with state establishment of one religion rather than simply two religions fighting against one another, including violence in Northern Ireland (my ancestral home), or the current violence in Syria, where ISIS is trying to establish Islamic authority over the state.

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              Mark – Holmes Co.
              Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 13:06)

              Good points, Trish. In my reading of Anabaptist history I saw it much more as a political persecution than a religious one even though it seems to be religious because it is a religious group being persecuted. It can get really complicated, though.

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      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 10:06)

      Jim, if I may make an observation here. As a ‘white’ guy in the USA, I am a part of a group that was once response slavery which sometimes included especially cruel behavior towards those slave. Of course not every white guy back then supported what was done, and I for one am neither defined nor limit my options of who to befriend because of what others within my group did long years before I was even around.

      I understand your question in light of the RCC and Anabaptist conflict way back when…, but isn’t like asking how could a white guy like me sit and have a discussion with a black guy because the slavery that already ancient history before we were born?

      Just a thought.

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      Daniel a Brethren
      Comment on Reformation information (February 3rd, 2015 at 22:05)

      Reformation information

      The face on the beginning of the Reformation of course, is Luther and his posting on October 31′ 1517, of the 95 articles against the Catholic Church. He had been taking these type of positions for about 10 years prior to this turning point. The invention of the movable type printing press allowed his to translate the Bible from Latin into German. Luther was strongly influenced by John Hus (or Huss).
      The Anabaptist reformers did not emerge for some time. They’d were not ANTI-Baptist but ANABAPTISTS. The phrase ANA means again. This was the beginning of Adult Baptism.
      Both the Catholic church AND the early reformers where theologically opposed to Adult Baptism due to their STRONG belief in Original Sin and of course the tax that both the State and the Catholic church levied on the family. Anabaptists were severly prosecuted, burned at the stake, but often drowned. You can’t miss the irony of that.

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    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 09:17)

    Erik, I’ve been to three Amish church services (2 in PA, and 1 in Jamesport, MO), and my experiences pretty much matched yours — although I don’t recall the Holy Kiss part. These services were in a hay barn, a basement, and a work shed. My wife and I also had the opportunity to help set up for service while we were staying in Mt. Hope / Holmes Co. (although we were not able to attend the service itself) as it was being set up in a shed annex built especially for church meetings, but was used to store farm stuff during the rest of the year.

    I would add singing to your list of five (although I can’t attest that they are true in every Amish community/service). Of the three hours in service, singing takes up approx. a third of that — and they cover a mere three hymns in that period of time. They hymns are written without musical notes (and look very similar to the way the Psalms are written in many English Bibles) with many verses, are song acapella somewhat similar to a very slow chant. Even if you don’t know German, with a little hooked-on-phonics under your belt, the singing is slow enough that you might be able to ‘sound-out’ the letters as they go along. (Some of the Amish ladies even asked my wife after the service if I spoke German. )

    You mentioned the fellowship meal, and we English tend to focus on the interesting ingredients in that meal — and understandably so, for there is some neat stuff served at that time. But if one can mentally step back and take it all in, for the Amish the meal seems to just be a platform for the more important fellowship. For a people that are (at least stereo-typically) considered stoic, you can watch a number of very animated discussions going on.

    One other thing to mention that characterized my visits: AWKWARDNESS. Little screams “I don’t fit in” like pulling your Honda off the driveway into a yard full of buggies. The PA congregations were more accustom to non-Amish visitors, but it still felt a little weird. The Jamesport group seemed to not be used to it, and only half-a-dozen people knew we were going to be there. It seemed that all eyes were one us and all minds were asking, “What are *these* folks doing here?” But the awkwardness subsided as we were later able to visit — and were made to feel very much at home.

    The Amish church services remain one of the highlights of my Amish experience. It might not be for everyone, but it is a cherished experience for me.

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      Mark – Holmes Co.
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 09:41)

      The noon meal is a big part of the day, not just for the food but the visiting that takes place. It’s not unusual to spend much of the afternoon just visiting with one another. We know some Amish who were from Somerset, PA, where they have church-houses and do not serve dinner after church. When they moved to a community that does, they felt that community was “closer” and they knew one another better.
      The Holy Kiss: in some communities all baptized members exchange it (men with men, women with women and Trish was right, in the house where the men might not even see it) and in others it is just the ministers. We are used to seeing it with the ministers and older church members. It is also used to welcome newly baptized church members into the church and by all baptized members at communion.
      Don Burke mentioned awkwardness. Even here in our community, non-Amish visitors at church (other than Mennonite relatives, maybe, or co-workers) are just rare enough that people do want to know “Who is that?” I doubt anyone realizes they were making a visitor feel uncomfortable, but you can be sure I’ll be thinking of that next time there are visitors in church! It can go both ways — we felt really awkward attending a non-Amish wedding a few years ago but as the day went on, we felt more relaxed and welcomed. I’m sure part of the awkwardness was only in our own minds.
      One last comment, I find it interesting to read the comments of people from other churches, like Trish’s comments. Sometimes a different view-point helps me understand my own better just like questions from someone can cause us to look at something more closely, something I might not have thought about very closely before.

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        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 10:22)

        In case I wasn’t totally clear, please understand that the Amish at the service didn’t do anything rude or otherwise uncaring. Any sense of awkward was because of our own internal angst — feelings we probably should have known better than having in the first place. Unlike our previous visits to an Amish service, I only half-way knew one person (one of the ministers) and had only the day before met a second person from the congregation. My wife knew no one. So there was a bit of apprehension about whether our being there would be an issue for anyone or not.

        But like Mark pointed out, it also gave me a bit of an insight on what it’s like being on the other side of the coin. Where I am normally the one silently looking on (read: gawking?) in honest curiosity as the Amish come into portions of my world, when the roles are reversed it’s easy to see that a kind and accepting word or gesture can mean a lot to make someone feel more at ease.

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          Mark – Holmes Co.
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 10:34)

          Don, I didn’t think anyone had been rude, but on the other hand it does make me wonder what could be done to make a visitor relax and feel welcome. And like you wrote, I’m sure times I have felt awkward it was mostly in my own mind. I’m guessing that social awkward feeling can happen in any culture. :) I know that when we attend church in other communities, I often arrive feeling a bit awkward but once we start visiting I realize (again!) that I was nervous for no reason.

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      Comment on Seating at the fellowship meal (January 28th, 2015 at 12:47)

      Seating at the fellowship meal

      I usually feel a little awkward (not through anyone’s fault) except for in a couple of congregations where I’ve been multiple times and people know why the English guy is here, who he is and who he came with :) . You feel this more at first when you arrive because naturally people are wondering who you are (I would be too!) but by the meal not at all.

      Mark one thing I always notice about the fellowship meal is that it is tight quarters. You kind of have to wedge yourself into a spot at the table. And that makes sense since there are other people waiting (I’ve been “lucky” enough to get in on the first seating just about every time :) )

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        Mark – Holmes Co.
        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:03)

        I never thought about it being tight, but then I wondered if you were in PA or OH? There is a difference. Around here there is just one setting and ministers & visitors almost always get seated first. Anyone who does not make it to the table will eat at the “draa laaf disch, ” or I guess “walk up table.” The tables will be set up where church was and the youth and any of the home men who did not have place at the table will be served dinner on tables in the basement or wash-house and they will not be seated but just stand around the table. This table is set up before church ends so the youth & boys can leave the service, eat immediately, then leave church for whatever activity they have planned. When we have been in PA the table was set tighter and there was more “push” to eat and make room. Does that make sense? Here once lunch or dinner is finished we might stay at the table for an hour or two.

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          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:11)

          Good question. I thought this was pretty much my experience everywhere I’ve been, but maybe not. Definitely in PA. At services I’ve been to in Holmes County, I don’t remember noticing, or just didn’t realize there was a walk-up table. But I do remember once standing while eating one time in the basement in Holmes County. I guess I was not a VIP that day, or they wanted me to have a different experience! :)

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        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:29)

        “Tight” quarters has seemed to be a function of the facility (in my very limited experience). The meeting in the hay barn had more room than the one in the basement (both in PA), and the ‘tightness’ of the smaller area was not so much in the larger.

        Since I am a pastor/minister, in both PA services I was instructed (not even asked) to sit with the ministers during the worship service. (Erik, talking about a bad place to be when a nap is sneaking up on you. 😉 ) I was also seated with the ministers during the meal. And if memory serves, both of the PA meals had a ‘second seating’ for the younger men that didn’t fit around the table the first time. I believe my wife said that there was even a third seating in the house where the women and children were on one of these. But as I recall, the Jamesport service didn’t require a second seating (although maybe some of the younger ones did eat outdoors.

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          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 12:16)

          If you sat with the ministers, did you get a seat with a back then? That is the real VIP treatment 😉

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            Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 17:11)

            Yes, I did, Erik. I recall the first service we went to there being something like folding chairs for the ministers. Two rows, facing each other in the front-center of the room. The men sat on benches behind where I was sitting; the women on benches in front of me (behind the row of ministers). The teens and young adults in a third section with benches running perpendicular to the other two sections. The second service we attended I can’t recall for sure, but think it did have some kind of folding chairs.

            The third service (Jamesport) I didn’t sit with the ministers, but they sat up a couple of padded chairs next to the benches for my wife and I to sit in. (Benches were set up in two sections (men and women), all facing the same direction, with a small aisle in between) My wife felt a bit awkward sitting on the side with the men (but even so she thought that was better than sitting alone on the other side). So, if have a chair with a back is VIP fare, well, I was VIPed in all three instances. 😉

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      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 19:40)

      Don, I might suggest a way that might be a little less uncomfortable for you, should you attend any other Amish church services. If I were to attend one, I would park my car a little distance down the road and walk in. It’s just less awkward.

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        Judith
        Comment on Wow! (December 31st, 2015 at 23:36)

        Wow!

        Saloma Furlong comments here?! I’ve read all her books! I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE her! Ms. Furlong is super cool and very awesome. She is a truly beautiful writer, I love her writing as much as her nonfiction stories.

        Regarding the Holy Kiss, as a Catholic, I must say I’m thankful we don’t have that anymore. It’s enough that I have to dip my germy hand into the germy Holy Water that a thousand germy people put their germy hands in – to bless myself upon entering and exiting the Church – but to kiss all those people on the mouth? I’m sorry, but I can’t help that God gave me a slight bit of hypochondria and a germaphobic mindset.

        I’m actually interested in the sermons. Do they meander, or do preachers pick a topic and embellish around it, or do they tell stories that relate to scriptures read, or all of the above? Are they influenced by each other? Are the sermons “fire and brimstone” or more “God is Love”? Is it just one sermon, or are there multiple preachers?

        Also I’m interested in that marshmallow/peanutbutter. How can I get ahold of some? I’m not kidding. It sounds so addictively delicious. Do they sell it in California?

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          Mark — Holmes County
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 2nd, 2016 at 12:33)

          I’m actually interested in the sermons. Do they meander, or do preachers pick a topic and embellish around it, or do they tell stories that relate to scriptures read, or all of the above?
          Janice, parts of all the above. Amish ministers do not use notes and most of the time, not even the ministers know who will preach until everyone is assembled at church and we see how many visiting ministers are present. With church held every other week, ministry can go visit other districts on their “off” Sunday. It’s rather rare to attend our home church and not have at least one or two visiting ministers. We once had 27! No notes are used and since a minister does not generally prepare ahead of time, (though they do study the scriptures that that district has planned for that Sunday) a sermon can go in different directions. It might relate mostly to the scripture but it could also cover something related to current events, or seasonal. Many ministers relate “stories” or happenings.

          Are they influenced by each other? Are the sermons “fire and brimstone” or more “God is Love”? Is it just one sermon, or are there multiple preachers?
          I’m sure they influence each other, especially the minister who has the main sermon. (There are two sermons, a shorter one first.) I’d say there is admonition or warning, but not the “fire & brimstone” I have heard in a few non-Amish settings. There is a lot of emphasis on the Love of God, repentance, and forgiveness. There are usually three ministers who actually participate in the usual church service, with other ministers asked for closing comments or testimony.

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            Judith
            Comment on More questions... (January 3rd, 2016 at 11:59)

            More questions...

            Do Ministers or Bishops wear any vestments? Is there a consecration of the bread and wine during communion?

            Also, the music is especially interesting to me since I am a professional musician. It’s definitely monophonically close to Gregorian chant. And it appears to be modal. Can anyone point me towards any musicology studies of Amish service music?

            thanks.

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    Jim
    Comment on Whoa folks... (January 28th, 2015 at 10:17)

    Whoa folks...

    Erik, no I am not a new commenter, I have joined in before.

    As for shutting down anything, I think everyone has jumped to a conclusion that was not intended, I just have not noticed so many rcc comments in one thread before, and it seemed out of place / off topic to what the OP was about.

    Again, sorry that it was taken way out of context….

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      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 11:06)

      Okay, that’s fine. I hope you understand why I interpreted what you wrote the way I did given the wording of your comment (“Does anyone really care…” sounds like you don’t want to hear anything related to RCC).

      Historically it is pretty relevant to bring up the Catholic church given Anabaptist origins. That aside, like Mark commented, I appreciate different perspectives and don’t want to discourage them. Trish has made a lot of great contributions to this site.

      At the time you commented there were a total of 2 comments on this thread mentioning the RCC. Half of one was an Amish-specific question, and the other attempted to relate to the Amish too.

      Anyway, no worries.

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    Tammy
    Comment on Amish Church (January 28th, 2015 at 10:40)

    Amish Church

    I have attended a church service for funerals in my area, but never a Sunday church service. The service was a bout 2 hours long and seen pretty similar to what you describe in your article. At one point during the service everyone in one motion hit the floor on their knees bowing in prayer as the preacher spoke. I too, kneeled in prayer as if I knew. It was a very moving service with several different preachers. Simply put, very awesome experience although for a sad occasion….

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    Comment on Meals after Gma (January 28th, 2015 at 12:58)

    Meals after Gma

    I posted on my blog about Amish Gma (Gmaay), which is their word for church. I know there are many different orders, settlement, and way of conducting church.

    With my Swartzentruber SIL & other “sons”, they’ve often related stories. Mosie said his upstate NY settlement had 3-4 hr services! When I asked him what he’d so for such a long time, he said he’d get a 15-minute break to go use the outhouse. “But I always stayed out longer,” he said.
    “Why?”
    “Cause I was smoking with the other boys.”
    Our SIL’s Amish father is a bishop. We’ve had interesting discussions when visiting their farm. My SIL told us that every time the preacher stood up to preach, heads went down. And when the preacher sat down, heads went up.
    For the Swartzentruber Gma, everything is in High German.
    The meal afterwards consisted of the SAME FOODS to avoid competition among the women. Mosie said he hated the little red things – beets. :-)

    • *
      Mark – Holmes Co.
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:08)

      We have been at Swartzentruber church & weddings and it was VERY different from what we are used to. We noticed the people seeming to avoid eye contact with the ministers and the ministers giving very dry and very High-German sermons.
      We are used to much more variety in our church lunch, but I know they are always served the same thing. I guess it just goes to show there is variety, right?

  • *
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:46)

    You’re right there Mark – variety among the Amish. Seems like every day I’m explaining that fact to an inquisitive person.

    May I ask, which church do you attend in Holmes Co? I’m down in Knox County. There are mostly OOA and Swartzies around us. However, at our local Farmer’s Market I met a New New Order Amish (that was a new one on me, pardon the pun).

    What you observed about the ministers giving dry sermons parallels with what our Swartzie “sons” have related to us. One told me that the ministers memorize the sermon – and since it’s in High German the minister doesn’t even know what he’s preaching.

    • *
      Mark – Holmes Co.
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 13:53)

      We are “Old Order.” I guess to be really correct, most of the Amish in our community would be called Old Order, but since we belong to the biggest or main group (with 140 districts in this part of Ohio), most people just call us “Old Order” and it’s the other groups who have names. The Old Order in Knox Co. are actually Dan Gmay or Andy Weaver people. Your Swartz. relatives would probably call us “Soud Leut.”

      • *
        Jonathan Edwards
        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 14:30)

        Don’t want to be disagreeable…but aren’t churches in your fellowship in Holmes County called ‘the south churches’? I hear (and personally use) this designation on a regular basis.

        • *
          Mark – Holmes Co.
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 14:34)

          Soud Gmay = South Church in English
          Soud Leut = South people in English

          We’d use the first more for the church, as in the South Church allows power lawn mowers, the second to talk about a group of people.

          • *
            Jonathan Edwards
            Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 16:22)

            Haha! I thought you were joking and intentionally misspelled ‘sound.’ I’ve never seen the Germans word for ‘south’ (Süd) rendered ‘soud.’ But I have hardly ever seen PA German in written form either.

  • *
    Debbie H
    Comment on Welcoming (January 28th, 2015 at 13:49)

    Welcoming

    In Pinecraft settlement I believe they meet in a church building. I always wondered if I could just show up there for service. I know they won’t throw me out, but wondered if anyone would speak to me or make me welcome.

    • *
      Leon Moyer
      Comment on attending your local Amish "gmay" (January 28th, 2015 at 19:10)

      attending your local Amish "gmay"

      To Debbie H. and others who would like to attend an Amish service: I live in Sarasota (on the water in a sailboat for the last year and a half) and attend the Amish church in Pinecraft at times. As Debbie noted, they do have a church building, although this time of year (Jan. through March) there are so many snow-birds present they also hold one or two Amish churches in homes in the Pinecraft area. The houses are small and I would not recommend attending in a private home in Pinecraft, because it is usually composed of people who know each other from up north. The church building however, seats probably 150 and is where you could attend. Of course, they will most likely have the entire service in a dutch dialect (depends on which minister from up north that will be preaching) and will read in high German from the Bible. Don’t expect anyone to translate in the room, as it disrupts the service to have someone speaking besides the minister. It would be best if you arrive at least 20 minutes before church commences (starts at 9:00 am, lasts till 11:30 or so) so that you could introduce yourself to some of the women who are arriving by bicycle outside the church–they will suggest where you might sit, and the location of the rest rooms ( no outhouse here!). And if you live here year around like I do, then attending after April will be a lot more pleasant–there are only about 20 or 30 full time members at Pinecraft, and they will spend more time visiting with you before and after the service, and may invite you to eat with them either at the church if they are holding a pot-luck meal once a month, or in their homes for a Sunday afternoon visit. And when you meet an Amish person while shopping etc., you may always use that occasion to bring up your desire to visit their church service, and ask if you would be welcome and what to bring (nothing–reading your own Bible sometimes makes the Amish minister feel like he is being checked out on his ability to read the scriptures–most members simply sit and listen to him). And for an even more “spiritual” experience and in English (please don’t censor me, Erik! lol) there is a Beachy Amish church on Honore between Bahia Vista and Fruitville that meets at 9:30 am with an hour of sunday school and then an hour of church, and you will feel very welcome there–we even had some sailors stop in a few weeks ago wearing shorts and short sleeved shirts who stayed for the service, although the members dress much like the Amish. While the men speak during sunday school, the woman are asked to remain silent (I Cor. 14:33 I believe). The singing is fantastic, as the children of John Overholt and his widow attend this congregation, John is the person who arranged and even wrote many of the songs in the Christian Hymnary. Hope this helps.

      • *
        Leon Moyer
        Comment on the church's name (January 28th, 2015 at 19:17)

        the church's name

        I forgot to put in the name of the Beachy Amish church–it is “Sunnyside”, located only about two miles east of Pinecraft, Fl.

        • *
          Leon Moyer
          Comment on another choice (January 28th, 2015 at 19:27)

          another choice

          And lest someone from Pinecraft chastise me, I omitted to list the Tourist church, located a few blocks west of the Amish church building, along Bahia Vista a few blocks west of the traffic light in “downtown” Pinecraft at Kaufman and Bahia Vista. The eponymous Tourist church (I always wanted to use that word! lol) seats probably over 200, has a service in English, and is somewhat non-denominational/conservative Menn./Amish and that’s kind of my opinion, I don’t know how they represent themselves. But you would feel very welcome there, and I don’t know what time their services start, probably 9:30. And there are many more “liberal” Mennonite churches in the Sarasota Fl. area, which I shall omit at this time.

  • *
    Alice Mary
    Comment on Fly on the wall (January 28th, 2015 at 15:07)

    Fly on the wall

    Like Debbie, I wondered the same thing. But being the person I am (not wanting to draw attention to my obvious “difference”), I wish I could be a fly on the wall in order to experience an Amish church service…or two (for comparison), and not have to deal with people wondering who I was (they could just swat me away!).

    I’ve enjoyed all the comments here, and stories of Gmay experiences by others, both Amish and English (or Yankee, as I hear we’re referred to in Ohio).

    I also thought of my own (yes, RCC) church experiences with long services. I always dreaded the gospel on Palm Sunday, as we had to stand for the whole thing, and it ran 15-20 min. (or more, depending on the priest). :(

    Alice Mary

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      Mark – Holmes Co.
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 15:10)

      At least we get to sit for most of church! :) When I hear someone call an non-Amish person a Yankee, I figure they are from Geauga County. I’ve never heard it used in Holmes Co. (unless talking about the Civil War) but I hear it from Geauga people and often wondered where it came from. Does anyone know?

      • *
        Comment on A theory on Geauga Amish use of "Yankee" (January 29th, 2015 at 14:44)

        A theory on Geauga Amish use of "Yankee"

        Mark, your question jogged something in my brain, I recalled that Saloma Furlong addressed this somewhere, but couldn’t find it anywhere online or in my email.

        So I dropped her a note and she replied with one idea, which came via Stephen Scott. From Saloma:

        ————————————–

        My theory came from the late Steve Scott. He thought it was because New Englanders settled that part of Ohio, so they were quite literally “Yankees.” And when someone leaves, they were “yanked over.”

        I think Steve is right about this theory. The timing would have been so that the Amish and the New Englanders were settling there simultaneously. Until I left the Amish, I didn’t know that other Amish didn’t use that term.

        • *
          Mark – Holmes Co.
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 14:55)

          Interesting. Thanks for checking it out, Erik. Somehow that got me thinking about the label “English” for non-Amish. I don’t know how it is in other areas, but we really don’t use the word “English” a lot and I almost get the idea non-Amish visitors are almost disappointed we don’t use it like they have read or heard.
          When we are taking PA Deitch, we call non-Amish people “Hoche leut” or “high people” and someone who leaves the Amish is “hoch ganga” or “went high.” I wonder if Geauga people use “Yankee” when they are talking PA Deitch?

          • *
            Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 19:53)

            No, Mark, we also used “hoche Leit” or sometimes “englische Leit” in our own language. Only when we were talking in English did we use “Yankee.”

            • *
              Comment on Amish vs. Yankees on the B-ball court (February 17th, 2015 at 07:33)

              Amish vs. Yankees on the B-ball court

              There is apparently an Amish vs. Yankee basketball game held annually in Geauga County, hosted by the Geauga County Board of Developmental Disabilities and associates.

              It’s apparently been going on for 35 years now(!) First I’ve heard of it.

              From the story:
              ——————-

              Each year, teams constructed of employees and volunteers at the GCBDD and the Amish Community of Geauga County who are passionate about serving individuals with developmental disabilities come together for two basketball games. The proceeds from these games are always used to benefit individuals with developmental disabilities.

              “These games are always a fun, competitive way to raise funds that we can use to support additional programming and services for the individuals of Geauga County with developmental disabilities,” explains Superintendent Don Rice. “Although it is a friendly game, both teams do their best to win, provide a good show and earn bragging rights for the year.

              http://geauganews.com/metzenbaum-hosts-35th-annual-amish-vs-yankee-basketball-game/

    • *
      Jonathan Edwards
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 16:28)

      I know of an Amish church that asked a plain-dressed visitor to stand up in the middle of singing to be patted down (right in front of the entire congregation) by one of the men so as to be sure the visitor wasn’t carrying a gun or other type of weapon.

    • *
      Leon Moyer
      Comment on see above comment (January 28th, 2015 at 19:16)

      see above comment

      Alice Mary: If you wish to attend a church where you will not draw as much attention to yourself, I suggest finding a conservative Mennonite church–they are more familiar with having visitors from all walks of life, and you will understand the service as it is in English.

  • *
    Comment on Smile (January 28th, 2015 at 17:06)

    Smile

    I had to smile at the part mentioning people falling asleep. We have a couple of people in our church that fall asleep every service and it’s only a traditional baptist hour and a half long service. I can only imagine how many would during a three hour sermon :)

  • *
    Jerome
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 28th, 2015 at 20:49)

    I have attended Sunday morning services among the New Order Amish of holmes county, sounds very much the same way. I was told later on back at the home of the family I was staying with that they were surprised I didnt take a nap! Although he said if I would have he would have just let me sleep cause he’s sure it was difficult to stay awake, although it wasnt too bad as he was passing me notes in english so I was at least on the same subject as the ministers. I also stayed with them the entire week prior to the service so I had met some of the ministers already and some parts were in english because they knew I would be there. This family usually only has coffee for breakfast on Sunday morning to help stay awake, but for that week the wife made it every morning because I am a coffee drinker. But probably the thing that kept me awake the most was I didnt want to fall off the bench!
    I have also been to services at Old Order and conservative mennonite churches, and also Old Order and New Order Holmes County Amish, Old Order and conservative Mennonite weddings. I have seen similarities with all of these different groups, but perhaps the most important thing is to “worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness”, which does leave room for SCRIPTUAL differences!

  • *
    Matthew M
    Comment on Lectionary Calendar (January 28th, 2015 at 23:57)

    Lectionary Calendar

    I am a little curious about this calendar, I have never heard of it before (if it is posted somewhere, I missed it). I have a few questions about it. Since it sounds like the calendar is something that each Amish minister has and can refer to it, is there some sort of committee that compiles the calendar? Or does the Bishop from each district select the Biblical texts and informs the publishers of the calendar? I am a little surprised to learn that the Amish practice “prepared” sermons. The denomination in which I belong to (Apostolic Christian Church of America) does not have prepared sermons. The minister just opens up the Bible and reads from where their eyes fall. There are some execptions for this such as certian holidays and weddings and a few other occassions.

  • *
    Carol
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 08:01)

    The lectionary that I am familiar with extends (I believe) over a three-year period. This is from a mainline Protestant denomination. Do the Amish have their own lectionary? It would surprise me if they were involved in anything “ecumenical” but maybe that’s another misconception of mine.

    • *
      Trish in Indiana
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 12:39)

      Carol, I too am curious as to who sets the list of readings for Amish churches, and what principles are involved in the selection, and whether each community sets its own lectionary or if there is one shared more broadly.

      The three-year lectionary you are familiar with, or Common Lectionary as it is often called, was adapted by the Consultation on Common Texts composed of representatives from many different denominations, and is directly based on the three-year lectionary developed by the Roman Catholic Church after Vatican II. (Before that, the Catholic Church used a one-year cycle, which was not able to include as much variety of readings.) Of course the Common Lectionary is not identical to the Catholic lectionary, but that was its starting point, and they are alike in far more places than they are different. Their organizing principle is to focus on a different Gospel each year (with Mark and John put together in a single year) and choosing an Old Testament reading to go with each Gospel passage, with an additional New Testament reading from Acts, the Epistles, or Revelation, chosen to go with the Gospel on special days but simply reading an entire book in course during Ordinary Time. A relevant Psalm is chosen for after the Old Testament reading.

      I have used the Common Lectionary a time or two in ecumenical contexts, and as a Catholic I found I felt very “at home” with it. I realize that this in itself may make some groups uncomfortable with using it; the “Catholic connection” might feel too strong. I would be very surprised if any Anabaptist groups used it, but don’t claim to know for certain.

      However, the Common Lectionary is certainly not the only way of planning readings ahead of time on a long-term basis. Many Christians find that there is much to be said for having some kind of lectionary. For one thing, it tends to expose people more reliably to the breadth of the Bible by keeping preachers from dwelling on “favorite” familiar passages. (There are few more efficient ways of getting into a rut than to be “spontaneous” all the time.) It also allows people other than the preacher to look ahead to the readings they are about to hear in church when they do their own Bible study during the week, or to easily recall what readings were preached upon so that they can study them more closely the week after. I have heard of some ministers in churches that do not have a formal lectionary scheduling their texts several months or a year at time, such as going through particular books of the Bible from beginning to end, or exploring a particular theme by doing texts related to it every week for a period of time.

      It would be nice to hear what the procedure has been for the Amish to set their readings.

      • *
        Mark – Holmes Co.
        Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 12:49)

        You have me wondering now. I never gave it much thought and I have no idea how the readings are determined but now I am wondering myself. :) I have a copy of the “Schrift & Lieder” here at work and it says “Holmes County and Vicinity.” I am just guessing here, but maybe smaller communities don’t have such a book. I’m guessing in smaller communities or the very conservative, the ministers have a list they go by but it would hardly be necessary to go to the expense & effort to print it. At any Amish church service I’ve been to the Bishop will announce where church is to be in two weeks and what scriptures will be read. In our area the only reason we really need a copy of this is when we are planning to visit other districts or wondering what songs to practice.
        See what I mean about comments by others sometimes lead to learning more about our own culture? :)

        • *
          Trish in Indiana
          Comment on I'm glad we were online the same time, Mark! (January 29th, 2015 at 13:25)

          I'm glad we were online the same time, Mark!

          It was nice “crossing comments” with you!

          I’m very grateful to Erik for creating this space where people of different backgrounds (mostly but not all non-Amish) can share thoughts springing from our varied experiences of interactions with and observations of and just plain curiosity about the Amish way of life. I think the interaction is at its best when it gets us thinking not only about the Amish, but about about ourselves.

        • *
          Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 17:18)

          So Mark, what I’m understanding from your comments agrees with what I recall from seeing the “scriptures of the week” (sorry, I don’t know the proper term) printed out somewhere: The scriptures for one congregation / community isn’t necessarily the same scriptures that another group will be using the same Sunday. Do I understand that correctly?

  • *
    VT anabaptist
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 17:38)

    Our anabaptist church, “Apostolic Christian Church” of america has many similarities. Known locally as “Swiss” Most of our earliest converts were Amish or Mennonite( early 1800s). We have an 1.5 hour forenoon worship then 1 hour lunch, families take turns providing lunch, then 1.5 afternoon worship. Sometimes if there is alot of visitors we will sing again at 3pm and have a supper a 4pm. Unpaid ministers preach with no prepared sermon and Bible is opened and read where it falls. One old test and one new test. We have seperate seating men and women and sing acapella. Women covered. All members greet with a Holy kiss men/men women/women. As a church spoke deitch until WW2, some still do. Bigger churches also have midweek worship Wed evening. Smaller churches, like ours do not but we can listen in speaker phone to a larger church which we do, or we get together to sing, mostly in summer. We baptize by full immersion and practice the ban on non-repentent erring members(according to scripture).
    Thanks Eric for all the hard work, i read often but rarely comment!, Also will send you an email when i have time to make a post on the neighbor Byler group, did help one family cut wood last week. Super busy on the farm at home here!
    Adam

    • *
      Naomi Wilson
      Comment on Apostolic Christian Church (January 29th, 2015 at 18:25)

      Apostolic Christian Church

      Thanks, VT anabaptist, your comment was very interesting to read. I have seen the Apostolic churches listed on diagrams of related Anabaptist churches, but didn’t know anything else about them. Are they scattered here and there, or clustered together in a certain region of the country?

    • *
      Bill Rushby
      Comment on VT and Impromptu Preaching (January 29th, 2015 at 19:42)

      VT and Impromptu Preaching

      Hello, VT!

      VT is usually an abbreviation for Vermont, but I don’t think there any Froelich Apostolic Christians in Vermont. So what does VT mean here?

      It appears to me that preaching in your denomination is not only extemporaneous(without notes), but also impromptu (without prior planning or outline). This style of preaching was also characteristic of early Quaker preaching.

      For the “lowdown” on the Apostolic Christians, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_Christian_Church I am not aware of any sociological/anthropological studies of this tradition. Do you know of any?

      One of our children sold reference books from door to door in rural Illinois, for the Southwestern Book Company. The Apostolics were his best customers! No TV, I guess!

      I had understood that the Apostolics originated as an Anabaptist splinter movement from the Swiss Reformed Church. Right or wrong?

    • *
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:11)

      I’m also interested in what the “VT” stands for. And I would be interested in attending a service. Are there any congregations in Western Mass?

      I have honestly never heard of this denomination. Thank you for writing this description.

      In the Amish community where I grew up, the ministers would read scripture and German prayers before going to church. But their sermons were not planned or prepared.

    • *
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:55)

      Super, Adam, always glad to see you pop up in the comments every now and again. Drop me an email anytime, and happy farming!

  • *
    VT anabaptist
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:03)

    Most of our churches are in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois but have 90+ churches nation wide. Yes VT is for Vermont, we have a small satelite church here for about 8 years, 8 or so families so far, home church being Rockville CT, we have 350 or so members there.
    -Adam

    • *
      Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:17)

      Where in Vermont? I lived in Vermont for nearly 30 years, and I’m just south of the Vermont border now.

  • *
    VT anabaptist
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:04)

    A book called “marching to Zion” tells our church history.

  • *
    VT anabaptist
    Comment on 5 Things You See at an Amish Church Service (January 29th, 2015 at 20:52)

    The VT church is in Clarendon VT just south of Rutland, we meet in a rented grange hall until we get more families up here. The Rockville church is just south of the Mass line in Ellington CT. No churches in Mass, other close ones are Lancaster Pa, and Crogan NY.

  • *
    Matthew M
    Comment on A. C. Tid Bits (January 30th, 2015 at 23:26)

    A. C. Tid Bits

    Bill, you are correct. Samuel Frohelich was a minister within the Swiss Reformed church and then left it. I believe that VT anabaptist meant to say Philadelphia Pa. instead of Lacaster Pa, because to my knowledge there are no congregations in Lancaster. Unless one has recently been started. I’ve always wondered why a congregation has never been started there. Just a few more facts about our denomination. Male members are clean shaven. German maybe spoken among the older generations, but it is not taught nor spoken on the pulpit. However, German is still used in the German Apostolic Christian Church. As far as technolgoy goes there are no limitations on its use. There are no restrictions on the use of televisions or on the internet. However, there are cautions about there use. Makeup, jewelry (watches are allowed) and shorts are discouraged as well as pants for women. Other than this there is no subscribed garb. Many male members wear dark conventional suits with dark ties and a white shirt to church.

  • *
    Matthew
    Comment on Schrift & Lieder (June 7th, 2015 at 00:52)

    Schrift & Lieder

    I know it may be a little out dated, but I would still like to learn more about how the texts are selected. Is there a committee that selects the texts or do the bishops select them?

  • *
    Matthew
    Comment on Schrift & Lieder (June 7th, 2015 at 00:55)

    Schrift & Lieder

    I know it may be a little out dated, but I would still like to learn more about the Schrift & Lieder.

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